Do you shoot him? - Page 7

Do you shoot him?

This is a discussion on Do you shoot him? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I once woke up in the middle of the night to a sound and went to investigate. I saw a figure and shot it in ...

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  1. #91
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    I once woke up in the middle of the night to a sound and went to investigate. I saw a figure and shot it in the dark!!! I called the police and they told me the Mirror was DOA..... :p
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    I once woke up in the middle of the night to a sound and went to investigate. I saw a figure and shot it in the dark!!! I called the police and they told me the Mirror was DOA..... :p
    Luckily, your draw was faster than his. Heh
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirage2521 View Post
    I am curious though, I guess I should post a poll. Maybe someone will. How many of you posting in this thread think an apparently surrendering BG is not a threat?

    How many think an apparently surrendering BG is still a potential deadly threat.

    In my mind he is a potential deadly threat to me and mine until he is bleeding profusely, gone or cuffed and arrested.
    And I can keep my potentially deadly weapon on him...until such time as cops come or he leaves. And my potentially deadly weapon will be trained on him as he leaves.

    If and when his 'deadly threat' emerges (hand movements, weapon is shown, buddies appear, etc), then my deadly weapon will also see action.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  4. #94
    jfl
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    Interesting thread

    The only thing I don't agree on is the "drunk stumbling in the house".
    If the intruder can pick the lock or gain entry otherwise, he is not drunk ! If he tries to knock down the entrance door, I'll have ample time to let him know it is a bad idea.

    If there is somebody in the house at 2 am, it is an aggressor; we have no kids, no parents, no family; our friends are sensible enough not to try to come without calling; you cannot see the house from the road; motion activated flood lights.

    Unless you have a huge house, he will be in the 20 ft range when you see him; remember the "Tueller Drill".
    He drops the gun but he might have a knife and shooting at him with a handgun might kill him but before he dies you may be cut pretty bad. Now with a 12 gauge it is a different story ... maybe.

    There are too many unknown parameters in the proposed scenario to be able to make a decision. What if I can shut the bedroom door and lock it, then go around and have the element of surprise in MY favor ?
    What if there is an obstacle between us; what if we can set him up in a cross-fire; having 2 guns pointed from 90 degrees might make him "think".

    We all have our own reasons: kids, jobs, training, disabilities, floorplan, armed spouse, remoteness, mindset, etc.
    Being now 70, diagnosed with cancer 2 weeks ago, my mindset has changed quite. I am not the fighter I used to be ...

    So, like another poster has said: I do what I do and you do what you do !
    The first rule of a gunfight: "Don't be there !"
    The second rule: "Bring enough gun"

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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    i'm not sure that is as simple as you want it to be...just for conversation sake the majority are just taking shots because somebody is in the house...regardless of whether they fear great injury or death and whether the person in their house is "using deadly force that is intended to cause death or great bodily injury to another person"....

    might want to read that a couple of times again....i know its your word against the dead guy...but now that youve etched it in stone here where a district attorney can find it you might want to make sure its as simple as you think it is....
    It seems that you are misunderstanding the purpose of a Castle Doctrine. They typically state that the act of breaking in is considered a threat to life. You can then use deadly force against it. It's a means of keeping a homeowner from having to defend their actions IN THERE OWN HOME. You know, the place the intruder has no business being. It typically is that cut and dry, and it's that way on purpose. To protect the homeowner from criminal and civil liabilities for defending their "castle". Wish a certain rep in NC would get off her case and hear ours in committee.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I think it goes without saying that you would identify your target. I don't have any kids taller than 40 inches. To me it would be pretty obvious, that if a grown man was in my home at 2 AM, he is an intruder. The OP states that you IDENTIFY a strange MAN in your home at 2 AM.

    We are discussing a MAN who has already been identified and is/was armed and has in some way claimed to have surrendered to you. Lets not muddy the waters with any more "what ifs".
    After reading/skimming 80ish posts, I didn't see much emphasis expressed on target identity. Perhaps it does go without saying and I wasn't tuned to it?

    I apologize for deviating a bit from your thread about this, but I wanted to encourage some emphasis on being sure it's a BG and not a family member you're shooting. Some muddy water on an internet forum is much better than life-long regrets and grief over a bad shoot.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    After reading/skimming 80ish posts, I didn't see much emphasis expressed on target identity. Perhaps it does go without saying and I wasn't tuned to it?

    I apologize for deviating a bit from your thread about this, but I wanted to encourage some emphasis on being sure it's a BG and not a family member you're shooting. Some muddy water on an internet forum is much better than life-long regrets and grief over a bad shoot.
    Well this whole thread is about whether or not someone in your home is still a deadly threat after they've dropped the only weapon you can see. So we have already identified them as an armed and now possibly disarmed BG.

    The BG has already been told at gunpoint "Don't move!". He moves....what do you do?

    As for me, I consider him a deadly threat up until the police show up and remove him. Some feel the same, and yet others feel differently.


    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    And I can keep my potentially deadly weapon on him...until such time as cops come or he leaves. And my potentially deadly weapon will be trained on him as he leaves.

    If and when his 'deadly threat' emerges (hand movements, weapon is shown, buddies appear, etc), then my deadly weapon will also see action.
    I have learned through years of fighting (I grew up in the Steel City and fighting was what we did), sports (I wrestled for 13 years) and hard knocks that action beats reaction. Achieving and maintaining the initiative (being first) plays a huge factor in how things turn out and who wins. I don't know how much training you have, but I would encourage you to "play" this one out with a friend a few times. Use a paintball gun or airsoft and see how many times you get shot by your "non threatening" BG. I'd be willing to bet you change your tune, or at the very least refine your tactics.

    If you wait till a weapon is shown or a buddy appears you are DEAD!
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

  8. #98
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    You are not less of a man if you don't kill them. News flash!!!
    Yes I'd they are not following instructions shoot them down like a dog. But I have seen several posts that imply that they would tell the officer responding a different version that what really happened. Another news flash, it's not your job to "clean up the gene pool". These cowboy attitudes are what the anti's use against us. Could you imagine this thread posted in the New York Times?

    Just to clarify, I am not saying to not use your firearm, I'm just saying to engage your gray matter before you remove the BG's

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfl View Post
    Interesting thread

    The only thing I don't agree on is the "drunk stumbling in the house".
    If the intruder can pick the lock or gain entry otherwise, he is not drunk ! If he tries to knock down the entrance door, I'll have ample time to let him know it is a bad idea.

    Exaaaaactly! lol!
    Acting like a "drunk" mysteriously crawled into MY LOCKED HOUSE is ludicrous. I spent ten years in the military, and I can tell ya', I've been pleeeenty drunk in my younger days bouncing around with the USMC, but if I got so wasted that I actually broke into another house, then I would have/should have, what's coming.
    I have neighbors, very nice neighbors--heck a retired Sheriff's Deputy that lives across the street from me-- and I live on a golf course for Christ's sakes! lol!. But if a "nice" neighbor, gets so darned drunk and FORCES into my home, and becomes a THREAT to me, he is a DEAD....NICE.....NEIGHBOR.
    This BS "Well the poor fella' might/could/may be drunk and BROKE INTO the wrong house doesn't make me cry one bit.
    Oh wait.....here it is......WAAAAA!!!!
    Agreed jfl, very much agreed....

    If there is somebody in the house at 2 am, it is an aggressor;

    Yep, and DEALT with. He's not there....for "cookies".



    There are too many unknown parameters in the proposed scenario to be able to make a decision. What if I can shut the bedroom door and lock it, then go around and have the element of surprise in MY favor ?
    What if there is an obstacle between us; what if we can set him up in a cross-fire; having 2 guns pointed from 90 degrees might make him "think".
    Good scenario thinking, brother.




    We all have our own reasons: kids, jobs, training, disabilities, floorplan, armed spouse, remoteness, mindset, etc.
    Being now 70, diagnosed with cancer 2 weeks ago, my mindset has changed quite. I am not the fighter I used to be ...
    I am sorry for your diagnosis. My wife (was 40) passed away in 2008 after dealing with this, and me taking care of her. I too, have *my* reasons now, to take care of my 11 yr old son, and I will move heaven and earth, and destroy all that stand in the way of his safety. Your mindset....is strong. You ARE, a fighter, jfl. You are dealing with more than ANYONE reading this right now, I could probably be safe in saying.

    So, like another poster has said: I do what I do and you do what you do !
    Indeed, jfl...indeed.
    Stop acting like we're fightin' for "freedom". We are ALREADY....free.

  10. #100
    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Yes, *after (if) I have identified him* as a threat or someone unknown to me....gun or not. As a woman, an unidentified male in my home uninvited, at nite, is a lethal threat, gun or not. I think that would be considered disparity of force.

    However this isnt a likely scenario for me...my dogs will announce anyone's presense....he'd sure be aware of somethin'.....
    I hope the bolded part is true because my dogs don't bark after a certain time of night. when I come home from a late night (2am) they don't bark. I would test this out if I were you more than once, if your not 110% sure. good luck stay safe.
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  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Well this whole thread is about whether or not someone in your home is still a deadly threat after they've dropped the only weapon you can see. So we have already identified them as an armed and now possibly disarmed BG.

    The BG has already been told at gunpoint "Don't move!". He moves....what do you do?

    As for me, I consider him a deadly threat up until the police show up and remove him. Some feel the same, and yet others feel differently.
    Below is the part I'm referring to that you posed in your OP. As I've stated before, and addressing your question....... be sure that it is a BG.

    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    A BG is in your home at 2 AM and you have him in you sights. He is not aware of you yet. You are not sure if he is armed because you haven't seen a weapon. Do you shoot him?
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post

    Now back to the other scenario. He was armed and dropped his gun. You are holding him at gun point and have called 911:

    My next question to you is this: Why, if the man WAS armed with at least one weapon and is in your home at two AM, would you not shoot him if he disobeyed a command like "don't move"? Would he no longer be considered a deadly threat to you? Or because he said "I give up"?

    My point in this line of questioning is that we still don't know anything about him except he has one less weapon.
    The first example is simply to contrast the second example. It is to help paint the whole picture. ^^^^^^^This is what we are trying to discuss.^^^^^

    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    This thread is a spin off from the cuff the BG thread. Instead of a BG that dropped his gun we pick it up with this...

    A BG is in your home at 2 AM and you have him in you sights. He is not aware of you yet. You are not sure if he is armed because you haven't seen a weapon. Do you shoot him?


    Also, I mentioned that it is a BG meaning BAD GUY in your sights. You have had time to identify him and to look for a weapon (you can't see one). The question aready assumes you have identified the intruder as someone who should not be there.
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfl View Post
    We all have our own reasons: kids, jobs, training, disabilities, floorplan, armed spouse, remoteness, mindset, etc.
    Being now 70, diagnosed with cancer 2 weeks ago, my mindset has changed quite. I am not the fighter I used to be ...

    So, like another poster has said: I do what I do and you do what you do !
    Sorry to hear of your diagnosis JFL. Good thoughts for a good fight coming your way.

    Sensible post as well.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    After reading/skimming 80ish posts, I didn't see much emphasis expressed on target identity. Perhaps it does go without saying and I wasn't tuned to it?

    .
    I did so in one of the very first posts.

    I've read some others.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  15. #105
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I have learned through years of fighting (I grew up in the Steel City and fighting was what we did), sports (I wrestled for 13 years) and hard knocks that action beats reaction. Achieving and maintaining the initiative (being first) plays a huge factor in how things turn out and who wins. I don't know how much training you have, but I would encourage you to "play" this one out with a friend a few times. Use a paintball gun or airsoft and see how many times you get shot by your "non threatening" BG. I'd be willing to bet you change your tune, or at the very least refine your tactics.

    If you wait till a weapon is shown or a buddy appears you are DEAD!

    Fine. I take the Tueller Drill very seriously. I also believe completely that it's ridiculous to assume that a double tap will STOP an attacker.

    I still am not shooting someone that does not pose an obvious immediate threat to me once they stop and drop a weapon or never have one to begin with.

    I'm just not. Or at least I pray I'm not.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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