This did happen but I'm wondering what you folks would have done if it turned ugly.
This is a discussion on This did happen but I'm wondering what you folks would have done if it turned ugly. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Texas solo
Does anyone realize that there are alternatives to deadly force?
Sure. Everything from minding one's own business, to running away, ...
June 15th, 2010 10:52 AM
Sure. Everything from minding one's own business, to running away, to calling 911...
Originally Posted by Texas solo
Doesn't always work. It's a good way to get yourself shot, and probably justifiably if you read the incident wrong to begin with.
I too would report and observe, but if you really feel you have to get involved, there's always pepper spray!
"Be justified. Blood may be easily wiped from the sword.
It cannot, however, be put back from where it came." --Quicksabre
June 15th, 2010 11:20 AM
Just remember, if you choose to intervene you step into the shoes of the person you think you are helping. If they had a legal right to use deadly force to defend themselves, then you may, as well. If they didn't, for whatever reason, then you don't. The problem with going beyond being a good witness is that you often don't have enough information to know whether someone has the legal right to use deadly force because you didn't see what led up to the confrontation. The person you are trying to defend may have been the one that started it or escalated it in another location where you did not see the interaction. The advice here is good: be a good witness.
June 15th, 2010 11:04 PM
You make some good points, but this is a case where laws vary state to state. So you can't say that one person can't defend another, because in many states that is exactly what can be done. I'm not saying I would choose to do so, but in my state it is allowed. In addition to the usual "self defense" residents of my state are allowed to protect others from death or great bodily harm and even to stop a felony in progress. This includes robbery with a weapon, carjacking, and of course murder. Also, I am a Paramedic and if someone hits me it is a felony. This is a relatively new law, but it extends the protection that police officers have had for years. I would still use my best judgment in each situation and not use the freedom allowed here in my state as an excuse to get involved in each individual case.
Originally Posted by Quicksabre
Last edited by romansten9; June 15th, 2010 at 11:05 PM.
Reason: fixed error
June 15th, 2010 11:17 PM
What he said^^
Originally Posted by Quicksabre
unless it is a friend or family member...
June 16th, 2010 01:04 AM
Just because a State law allows you to do something, does not mean that you have to do it. Especially if it puts your life or freedom in jeopardy.
Originally Posted by romansten9
And just because the law allows you to carry a firearm, it in no way gives you any more rights or authority to act, than it does persons who choose not to carry.
The reason many people have responded that their first reaction would be to call 911 and end their physical involvement there, is because given what the OP had witnessed, it was the correct action to take given the facts. If he had seen the man jump out of the car with a bat and proceed to play baseball with the other guys head, then he may have had more justification to act to defend a third party.
Remember: When it comes to pulling the trigger, it is ALWAYS the perspective of others which determine if you are a hero, or a criminal.
God, Guns, and Country, are all things I believe in.
They are also the things that liberals are trying to take away.
June 16th, 2010 01:48 AM
Ok, I replied earlier but this one has great reasons why my gun would remain holstered and cell phone out talking to 911. What kind of a crappy day would that be huh? I couldn't imagine, especially if I pulled the trigger.
Originally Posted by Sticks
Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME
Crossman 760 BB/Pellet, Daisy Red Ryder, Crossman Wrist Rocket, 14 Steak Knives, 3 Fillet Knives, Rolling Pin-14", Various Hunting Knives, 2 Baseball Bats, 3 Big Dogs and a big American Flag flying in the yard. I have no firearms; Try the next house.
June 16th, 2010 08:50 AM
This is something only you can answer. You won't be thinking, "Gee, what would everyone else do?" if it happens. You'll get a lot of get involved/don't get involved responses, but in the end, it will be your decision and what you feel you can live with. To me, it sounds as if you would get involved if it looked like someone might be killed or seriously injured, and I can respect you for that.
If this ever happened, make a decision; live with the consequences.
Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid...
Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth
June 17th, 2010 01:54 AM
June 17th, 2010 08:46 AM
This is not your problem to solve.
Ugly business having to witness it though. They brought their fight into your view, that's all.
You're not trained to react in this situation, and I know this from your question. My advice is to do, just what you did, dial 911 and report it.
But now that you are a witness, you feel the need to do more, right? Then learn to be a GOOD WITNESS and report the facts to the officer after his arrival, even after the combatants have departed the scene.
Being a good witness can be as stressful as actually getting into the fray. But without the proper training to intervene, you may end up the only dead one at the scene!
Learning to be a good witness is as tough as learning how to carry or worse. There is just so much info to be recorded in the mine and on paper if ya can...
Read up and get ready for it, it is coming to a town near you too, soon. Be prepared.
June 17th, 2010 03:24 PM
A situation that I wouldn't want to be in.
It's like every other scenario, we've got to decide what we're going to do, before the situation presents itself.
As hard as it would be to watch something unfold, like that; I have to agree with most of the posters...
I am not willing to die or be jailed or sued over it. If there is an innocent victim, it's their right and responsibility to defend themselves, not mine.
Some situations may be more clear than others, but it's a gamble that I doubt that I could take.
Trust in God and keep your powder dry
"A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source
June 17th, 2010 03:44 PM
There's a general rule that it pays to follow: When two or more people who obviously know each other are working out some kind of relationship issue, even if - and especially if - it starts getting violent, don't get in the middle of it.
That's an easy way to get yourself hurt or killed. People here will tell you all the time about how the cop who restraints the violent, battering husband is promptly knifed in the back by the wife. You just don't know what's going on, you don't have a playbook that says who's the good guy in the scenario.
You have to let people work out their own issues. And, the important part is this:
And isn't that a whole lot better than you introducing "man with a gun" into the picture? No need to add what-ifs to the situation. You play it by ear.
The fight went on for a good 5 minutes and both parties did go separate ways
before the police arrived
What you can do: As said above, call 911. You are witnessing an assault in progress, so it's OK to report it. Be a good witness. If you want to get involved, honk your car horn and yell "police are on the way!" Stay in your car and be ready to book. There's no need for a firearm here so keep it holstered. You can always put the car in gear and drive away.
To sum up, the appropriate response is not necessarily "don't get involved," but "don't interject yourself into the middle of it."
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
June 18th, 2010 03:38 PM
It pleases me to no end; Knowing that my fellow man would stand idlly by while I am being assaulted. If its just a simple fight, Then ok, BUT once someone is down and the aggressor pulls a weapon I feel it is everyones duty to help nomatter the situation. Those of you who would do nothing.. well ill hold my breath and brace myself for the flaming that is going to come.
Today we need a nation of Minute Men citizens who are not only
prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of
freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life. J.F.K.
June 18th, 2010 04:44 PM
so youll watch the simple fight...but when a weapon comes out (and usually things happen real fast once it does) youll make the decision that somethings wrong and has to be done...i got it now...let em beat each other up...but when someone introduces deadly force its over...well then if you are the one getting beat up (your scenario from above) i hope you dont decide to employ your firearm if someone like yourself is around...cause theres a chance theyre gonna shoot you from your statement...getting the picture yet?...whos right?...
Originally Posted by endobong
problem with that is you still dont know the situation and your idea of help might just end up being the laws idea of you made a mistake getting involved...
i'm not using that as an excuse to not get involved...i'm using it to reinforce that you do not know the situation unless you are privy to all the details or have a relationship to one of the participants...and you are not...
i know where youre going "someone is down"...define that...at what point are they purely defensive and helpless?...its still a fight until the threat is stopped...right?...
June 18th, 2010 05:15 PM
I'll add my vote to the "If you don't know what is going on, be a good witness".
You can end up helping the wrong side, or getting both to turn against you; what are you going to do now, shoot them both ?
To misquote John Wayne "Life is tough, it is tougher when you do stupid things".
My thanks to the OP; always good to run a situation in your head and have a plan ready, just in case.
The first rule of a gunfight: "Don't be there !"
The second rule: "Bring enough gun"
jfl (NRA Life Member/Instructor - GOA - IDPA - GSSF - ex-IHMSA)
June 18th, 2010 05:25 PM
That is a really tough one. I would definately be torn as to what to do. Obviously calling 911 like you did was the first and best idea, after that its up to you. Personally i wouldnt risk my life not knowing the whole story. That is unless for some reason one of them ran up to my car and put me in danger that i could not escape.
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