This is a discussion on This did happen but I'm wondering what you folks would have done if it turned ugly. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Texas solo Does anyone realize that there are alternatives to deadly force? Sure. Everything from minding one's own business, to running away, ...
Sure. Everything from minding one's own business, to running away, to calling 911...Originally Posted by Texas solo
Doesn't always work. It's a good way to get yourself shot, and probably justifiably if you read the incident wrong to begin with.I too would report and observe, but if you really feel you have to get involved, there's always pepper spray!
"Be justified. Blood may be easily wiped from the sword.
It cannot, however, be put back from where it came." --Quicksabre
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Just remember, if you choose to intervene you step into the shoes of the person you think you are helping. If they had a legal right to use deadly force to defend themselves, then you may, as well. If they didn't, for whatever reason, then you don't. The problem with going beyond being a good witness is that you often don't have enough information to know whether someone has the legal right to use deadly force because you didn't see what led up to the confrontation. The person you are trying to defend may have been the one that started it or escalated it in another location where you did not see the interaction. The advice here is good: be a good witness.
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You make some good points, but this is a case where laws vary state to state. So you can't say that one person can't defend another, because in many states that is exactly what can be done. I'm not saying I would choose to do so, but in my state it is allowed. In addition to the usual "self defense" residents of my state are allowed to protect others from death or great bodily harm and even to stop a felony in progress. This includes robbery with a weapon, carjacking, and of course murder. Also, I am a Paramedic and if someone hits me it is a felony. This is a relatively new law, but it extends the protection that police officers have had for years. I would still use my best judgment in each situation and not use the freedom allowed here in my state as an excuse to get involved in each individual case.
Last edited by romansten9; June 15th, 2010 at 11:05 PM. Reason: fixed error
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What he said^^
unless it is a friend or family member...
NRA Certified Rifle/Pistol Instructor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G18CFw0lnD8
Accuracy ALWAYS WINS! So carry what you can hit with.
If you find yourself in a fair fight your tactics stink.
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Just because a State law allows you to do something, does not mean that you have to do it. Especially if it puts your life or freedom in jeopardy.
And just because the law allows you to carry a firearm, it in no way gives you any more rights or authority to act, than it does persons who choose not to carry.
The reason many people have responded that their first reaction would be to call 911 and end their physical involvement there, is because given what the OP had witnessed, it was the correct action to take given the facts. If he had seen the man jump out of the car with a bat and proceed to play baseball with the other guys head, then he may have had more justification to act to defend a third party.
Remember: When it comes to pulling the trigger, it is ALWAYS the perspective of others which determine if you are a hero, or a criminal.
God, Guns, and Country, are all things I believe in.
They are also the things that liberals are trying to take away.
Ok, I replied earlier but this one has great reasons why my gun would remain holstered and cell phone out talking to 911. What kind of a crappy day would that be huh? I couldn't imagine, especially if I pulled the trigger.
Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME
Crossman 760 BB/Pellet, Daisy Red Ryder, Crossman Wrist Rocket, 14 Steak Knives, 3 Fillet Knives, Rolling Pin-14", Various Hunting Knives, 2 Baseball Bats, 3 Big Dogs and a big American Flag flying in the yard. I have no firearms; Try the next house.
This is something only you can answer. You won't be thinking, "Gee, what would everyone else do?" if it happens. You'll get a lot of get involved/don't get involved responses, but in the end, it will be your decision and what you feel you can live with. To me, it sounds as if you would get involved if it looked like someone might be killed or seriously injured, and I can respect you for that.
If this ever happened, make a decision; live with the consequences.
Retired USAF E-8. Avatar is OldVet from days long gone - 1978. Oh, to be young again...
Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield
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It is a hard decision to make. Way to many what ifs and not enough info would really make me hesitate with the intervening hero stuff.
Bold = devil advocate
It would be tough watching a guy screech up, get out and beat someone to death with a brick for several minutes all the while the girlfriend is yelling bloody murder and screaming for help.
I partially blame the litigious society we live in where helping your fellow man will get you behind bars and tens of thousands of $ will be spent in trying to prove you did the right thing.
I find it interesting that some of us consider ourselves "sheep dogs" and the unarmed/unprepared as sheep, when we are very ready to just keep driving and say "its none of my business"
Naturally your course of action will be dictated by the event you encounter. I keep a high power flashlight and pepper spray on me at all times at night/ in the car. If it is one sided and escalating into a beaten to death scenario, i very well may intervene.
Naturally i understand why people do not want to get involved and for the most part i agree. You don't know the whole story and what you do not know may ruin or end your life.
I also know what it feels like to do nothing and live with the idea that you could have done something to save someones life but just averted your eyes instead.
In short and quite wishy washy, I wouldn't blame anyone for being a good samaritan. In the heat of the moment, someone that flat out states they would not interfer may do a complete 180 when faced with reality.
If i were being beaten with a brick and one of you guys where watching and didn't help me, your explanation of not wanting to get sued or go to jail would probably sound pretty feeble to me.
Good topic and i like to let both sides have a mud wrestling match inside my sleepy head this late.
g'night
"In those days, there was a lot more respect for other people and it showed in peoples values.... Today the word value means nothing more than something you get on the $1 menu at McDonald's." -BARK'N
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This is not your problem to solve.
Ugly business having to witness it though. They brought their fight into your view, that's all.
You're not trained to react in this situation, and I know this from your question. My advice is to do, just what you did, dial 911 and report it.
But now that you are a witness, you feel the need to do more, right? Then learn to be a GOOD WITNESS and report the facts to the officer after his arrival, even after the combatants have departed the scene.
Being a good witness can be as stressful as actually getting into the fray. But without the proper training to intervene, you may end up the only dead one at the scene!
Learning to be a good witness is as tough as learning how to carry or worse. There is just so much info to be recorded in the mine and on paper if ya can...
Read up and get ready for it, it is coming to a town near you too, soon. Be prepared.
Certified Glock Armorer
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A situation that I wouldn't want to be in.
It's like every other scenario, we've got to decide what we're going to do, before the situation presents itself.
As hard as it would be to watch something unfold, like that; I have to agree with most of the posters...
I am not willing to die or be jailed or sued over it. If there is an innocent victim, it's their right and responsibility to defend themselves, not mine.
Some situations may be more clear than others, but it's a gamble that I doubt that I could take.
Trust in God and keep your powder dry
"A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source
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There's a general rule that it pays to follow: When two or more people who obviously know each other are working out some kind of relationship issue, even if - and especially if - it starts getting violent, don't get in the middle of it.
That's an easy way to get yourself hurt or killed. People here will tell you all the time about how the cop who restraints the violent, battering husband is promptly knifed in the back by the wife. You just don't know what's going on, you don't have a playbook that says who's the good guy in the scenario.
You have to let people work out their own issues. And, the important part is this:
And isn't that a whole lot better than you introducing "man with a gun" into the picture? No need to add what-ifs to the situation. You play it by ear.The fight went on for a good 5 minutes and both parties did go separate ways before the police arrived
What you can do: As said above, call 911. You are witnessing an assault in progress, so it's OK to report it. Be a good witness. If you want to get involved, honk your car horn and yell "police are on the way!" Stay in your car and be ready to book. There's no need for a firearm here so keep it holstered. You can always put the car in gear and drive away.
To sum up, the appropriate response is not necessarily "don't get involved," but "don't interject yourself into the middle of it."
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
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It pleases me to no end; Knowing that my fellow man would stand idlly by while I am being assaulted. If its just a simple fight, Then ok, BUT once someone is down and the aggressor pulls a weapon I feel it is everyones duty to help nomatter the situation. Those of you who would do nothing.. well ill hold my breath and brace myself for the flaming that is going to come.
Today we need a nation of Minute Men citizens who are not only
prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of
freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life. J.F.K.
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so youll watch the simple fight...but when a weapon comes out (and usually things happen real fast once it does) youll make the decision that somethings wrong and has to be done...i got it now...let em beat each other up...but when someone introduces deadly force its over...well then if you are the one getting beat up (your scenario from above) i hope you dont decide to employ your firearm if someone like yourself is around...cause theres a chance theyre gonna shoot you from your statement...getting the picture yet?...whos right?...
problem with that is you still dont know the situation and your idea of help might just end up being the laws idea of you made a mistake getting involved...
i'm not using that as an excuse to not get involved...i'm using it to reinforce that you do not know the situation unless you are privy to all the details or have a relationship to one of the participants...and you are not...
i know where youre going "someone is down"...define that...at what point are they purely defensive and helpless?...its still a fight until the threat is stopped...right?...
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I'll add my vote to the "If you don't know what is going on, be a good witness".
You can end up helping the wrong side, or getting both to turn against you; what are you going to do now, shoot them both ?
To misquote John Wayne "Life is tough, it is tougher when you do stupid things".
My thanks to the OP; always good to run a situation in your head and have a plan ready, just in case.
The first rule of a gunfight: "Don't be there !"
The second rule: "Bring enough gun"
jfl (NRA Life Member/Instructor - GOA - IDPA - GSSF - ex-IHMSA)
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That is a really tough one. I would definately be torn as to what to do. Obviously calling 911 like you did was the first and best idea, after that its up to you. Personally i wouldnt risk my life not knowing the whole story. That is unless for some reason one of them ran up to my car and put me in danger that i could not escape.
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