June 19th, 2010 10:24 AM
First of all you need to imagine the enormous amount of stress you'd be under. Simply being a crack shot on a paper target doesn't prepare you for such an encounter. I would imagine anyone who has not received countless hours of military or LEO training would at the very least hesitate or make a fatal mistake. This is a situation played out in movies where the steely nerved hero puts a hole through the perps forehead and responds with a clever one liner. Personally I don't possess the skill level nor confidence to risk my wife's life on such bravado. I'd try to stay calm and keep my weapon concealed but ready. When he became preoccupied by emptying the cash register or taking wallets from customers I'd wait for my opportunity and empty my pistol into his sorry rear end. But thats just me.
June 19th, 2010 10:52 AM
I like the way you think.
Originally Posted by MattInFla
My wife knows the 'hostage-drop' as well. She would watch me and wait for the opening she knows is coming. Her intuition (though not her S/A) is better than mine and she will read me.
At this point in the OP scenario I have drawn my gun; his hammer is down but I don't know where he is pointing, I'll assume in my general direction, but not directly aimed 'at me'. When my wife drops I will take that shot in the .5 seconds that is offered, and will beat the BG before he can perceive that I am going to shoot and react to the changing dynamic. I know what I am going to do, and he does not. Can I beat him? I am confidant that I can. I am not being braggadocios; without confidence in one's ability the BG will win.
If he twitched towards harming one more person, especially my wife, he is going down. Truth be told he is going down anyway, as he has demonstrated that he is willing to shoot, the threat is now palpable and it is doubtful it will decrease.
If he dropped the gun (unlikely), I would attempt to hold him for the police.
If he didn't.....well.....I have no choice; I am not giving up.
This is the law;
The purpose of fighting is to win.
There is no possible victory in defense.
The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either.
The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental. - John Steinbeck
June 19th, 2010 10:58 AM
I would certainly not take the word of a felon that he would peacefully leave if he gets money. Too many witnesses/hostages heve been killed even when they cooperate. I would take the head shot.
"First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand."
Edge of Darkness
June 19th, 2010 11:05 AM
I'd like to think I'd be steely enough to counter his 15 seconds with "You've got 7 seconds to drop the weapon and run away before I drop you." My wife is pretty sharp and we've talked about stuff like this, so I'd also like to think that she'd drop within a second or two of me saying that word to the BG. As soon as she started dropping, one or two rounds would go down-range, preferrably in to his head or chest.
In reality...? I'd prolly be too danged nervous to make a pithy statement. As such, I'd like to think that while he was counting down I'd realize the hammer was down on his wheel gun and pop him in the head the first second he changed his sweaty-handed grip, adding another half-second to his cocking and firing the weapon.
At the end of it all? I'd rather the guy just drop his gun and haul-butt outta the place. No way I'm giving up my piece, regardless.
Arkansas Concealed Carry Instructor #12-751
If guns kill people, then:
Pincels miss spel werds;
Cars make people drive drunk;
And spoons made Rosie O'Donnel fat.
June 19th, 2010 11:06 AM
Since my wife is involved that means I'm not working at the moment.
My first instinct is to contain the situation but in reality, in this case I want him to flee, and no I won't be chasing after him. I need to make him acutely aware that his only chace to live is to not harm his hostage. If he fails in that I will not be contained by laws, morals or any other restraint.
I will tell the cashier to give him a bag full of money. I'm not going to risk a rescue shot when this may be avoided by just giving him the money. Maybe you all are John Rambo, but I know I'm not. The risk is too great in this case when there are other avenues available that will allow one to reach the desired destination.
The desired destination is badguy gone and spouse unharmed.
Last edited by BikerRN; June 19th, 2010 at 11:11 AM.
June 19th, 2010 11:10 AM
yes this is the best option
Originally Posted by sentioch
June 19th, 2010 11:54 AM
Sorry did forget the BG is alternating between pointing his weapon at you and at your wife to stress his threats on her.
Great responses and lots of options presented keep them coming.
You have drawn your weapon because you have seen the threat that he is drawing a gun and your wife happens to walk out at the wrong moment either way your CC is out and he knows you are armed. Again we are back to the hide your gun and wait til he turns his back and shoot him then. Keep in mind with his backed turned he is not a direct lethal threat to you, but to each his own that is not the purpose of the post.
"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013
June 19th, 2010 12:11 PM
This robber does not know several important things:
1. Mrs. Gray is armed.
2. Mrs. Gray has been through the same handgun defense training I have, including disarm/retention.
3. Despite her usually sunny disposition, seeing the employee get shot almost certainly made Mrs. Gray very, very grumpy.
I want his attention focused anywhere but on her. I hold his attention by moving slowly, speaking calmly, and acting as if I have every intention of setting my gun down VERY SLOWLY. I'm buying her a window of opportunity. If I have the presence of mind, I'm also looking for his buddies. "Take it easy, take it easy, we can settle this without anyone else getting hurt. Nobody make any sudden moves, we don't want any surprises. You're in control. We don't need more violence. We'll give you everything you want. Let's all stay calm. I'm going to set my gun down, SLOWLY, right here where you can see it. No surprises, ok? Here we go..."
She shoots him at contact distance and continues firing until he's no longer a threat. If she backs away, I have a clear shot, and he's still a threat, I'll shoot him, too. Self defense - a game the whole family can play!
Afterward we're ready to deal with his buddies, who might be stupid enough to do something other than flee.
Sucks to be him. Too bad no one told him that sometimes people who look as harmless as Mrs. Gray carry concealed handguns and know how to use them.
June 19th, 2010 12:12 PM
I believe that BikerRN makes some good points and if circumstances were slightly different I might go with it. But in this particular situation, I have a couple problems with them. Going by the info given, it is already established that the perp will shoot, he already has. The biggest problem I have with BikerRN's solution is that I have drawn down on the perp and he knows the hostage is with me. I would not put it past the perp to shoot my spouse after he gets the money just for spite and then engage in a shootout with me, further endangering my children. I have experience with how vindictive criminals can be. If that happens, even if I shoot him afterwards, my spouse is already shot.
My wife would be no help and might panic, getting herself shot, or make me take a shot with less chance of success than the one now available.
I would cock my weapon to provide a sa shot, yell, "EASY" to try to calm the perp and take the shot. It is a shot, at a range, that I practice every time I go to the range.
June 19th, 2010 12:17 PM
Well, let's put this in context. In the average sit-down eatery, your looking at around 50' from wall to wall. Add furniture and considering the floor plan, your looking at about 15'-20' between you and the turd holding your SO hostage. All things considered, with my level of practice/proficiency, the weapon that I am carrying is the weapon that I practice with, and the distances involved, I believe that I could make that shot. I'm not trying to toot my own horn or paint a picture of me being Bruce Willis, but I believe that I could place one bullet pretty much where I want on the BG. Since his eyes are on me, I assume that most or all of his face is exposed. I know that shooting at the range is different that shooting people, but at 25 feet, I can shoot one ragged hole in the target with my XD9. I am confident that I can make that shot. Just my opinion.
June 19th, 2010 12:20 PM
I'm with Biker all the way on this one. Warn BG of what will happen to him if he hurts my wife. Direct cashiers to give BG as much money as it takes to get him to exit without my wife (though he'll be looking to keep his shield).
And keep my firearm trained on him the entire time. No way I'm giving it up.
Having a BUG would be a big plus as well.
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June 19th, 2010 12:36 PM
I'm not confident enough to take the shot either. Not without a high risk of making my wife's head a canoe.
That being said, I'd probably keep my gun up, toss him my wallet and try to get him to take it and go. (It won't get him very far anyways.) I wouldn't however disarm myself. Why exactly should I trust a guy's word who's holding my wife hostage for a few hundred bucks?
This scenario sucks. There's almost no good way out of it (for myself), unless I just lose a few hundred bucks.
I like to think that most people wouldn't kill a person for money, but I'm getting more disappointed in mankind daily, and with drugs making people crazy it's a possibility.
Which reminds me, I need to practice shooting more.
June 19th, 2010 12:38 PM
Howdy Mr. Guantes.
Originally Posted by Guantes
I'm not going to try and get into a "let's see who can pee higher up the tree" contest with you. I too practice headshots at that distance, but have never had my spouse in the line of fire. I do not know with 100% certainty that I could make that shot with what I'm carrying right now. I just readjusted my sights, and will need to confirm POA/POI later in the week. Right now I'm confident with COM, but not precision shooting at this point in time.
I too have expirience with how vindictive badguys can be, that is why I made it clear, and will do so to the badguy, that any harm to my spouse will result in me not being shackled by any restraints. I would not be putting my gun down and the sights would be on my target with my finger on the trigger.
As the situation was presented I do think that it can still be resolved, maybe, without taking the shot. I don't care about the employee that was shot, and outside of using him to guage how I respond to the situation, he is of no concern to me at that moment. On the other side of the coin: maybe I can make that shot. I would rather risk a "maybe" on my wife not getting shot compared to me "maybe" making that shot.
I have only one concern at that moment and will do what I think is best given my expirience and training, as well as "gut instinct". You too sir will do the same. To each their own. I can tell you that I will be assessing the situation and changing as needed to deal with it. Not having been in that situation there is no 100% guarantee how anyone will respond, and that only pertains to that situation, as each one is different in some small way.
Take care and stay safe.
June 19th, 2010 12:42 PM
You are face to face at a distance of 12 yards, the hammer is down on his revolver, your kids are safely behind hard cover of a metal serving counter, you are mostly concealed by an overturned table, the suspect has his back to a solid brick wall, you have the right shoulder, arm and a 1/2 to 3/4 headshot. He has given you 15 seconds to comply.
14, 13, 12,........
That table gives me the opportunity for a good solid rest. At 12 yards, with a 1/2 to 3/4 headshot,if he stops moving for more than a couple of seconds, I'm going to put a bullet through his eyeball and that'll be the end of that.
I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.
AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
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June 19th, 2010 12:50 PM
I'd NEVER take a head shot at 15-20' under stress with the wife being held hostage. You're only 1/2 as good at the range as your are under stress (at best). If you shoot 1 1/2" groups that he range at that distance.... that puts you 3" off POI. That "might" hit his ear or his cheek. Then you've really pissed him off and the wife get one to the noggin'. Utttt Ohhh, no soup for you tonight. Never give up your gun, but wait for the shot.
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