Surrendering your weapon - Page 6

Surrendering your weapon

This is a discussion on Surrendering your weapon within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I will actually have pity on the BG, as my wife will be opening a can of whoop arse, and she does not play fair. ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    I will actually have pity on the BG, as my wife will be opening a can of whoop arse, and she does not play fair. She reacts very violently to anyone touching her/grabbing her, especially by surprise.

    She has no training other than growing up with two brothers, and she is not petite. It would be like trying to grab a large wild cat that has not eaten for 4 days and was starting to munch on a deer.

    The problem is going to be getting her to stop once the threat is ended.

    [wife] Why didn't you shoot him?

    [me] He no longer qualified as a threat once you gouged out his eyes, broke his jaw & nose, and pounded his manhood into his stomach. I don't know how were going to get your shoe out of there.

    Now playing this out as the OP qualified the parameters;

    ... as you stand up drawing your CC the BG now knows two things you are armed and that the hostage is related to you.
    If I have 15 seconds, then I have more than ample time to be able to keep aim and make the slow precise shot. No need to reply, just breathe, keep aim and squeeze.

    In actuality, the BG will not get to complete his demand for money, let alone ordering me to drop my weapon. If I have already gone through the drilled reaction of drawing my carry as soon as he grabbed my wife, then I am 100% focused on the target and what is behind it. Since there is a no-shoot in the line of fire, it is an aimed shot, not point shoot. The only thing that may screw this up is the clerk that attempts to grab the BG before I squeeze, in which case there will be a brief pause for a clear target again.

    Of course this is all Sunday morning talk at the kitchen table with my computer and a coup of coffee. The only commands that I may hear and respond to is "Stop...Trigger...Muzzle...Cover..." Like the majority of people on this forum, I have never been in a situation that I have needed to use my carry in a SD situation, hope that I never have to, and I am going to hope that my training and practice hold true.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep


  2. #77
    Member Array Winston Smit's Avatar
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    Take the shot.

    I would not trust the word of whatever lowlife was holding a gun to my wife's head.

    Just don't shoot the hostage, despite what you saw in Speed.

  3. #78
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    the easiest way to accomplish this is to simply lift your legs towards your chest. Just pick them straight up. Unless the have underhooked an arm, nearly no one can hold the dead weight of another person. Particularly when caught off guard.
    Since we're deep in strategy and tactics here, let's look at the fast drop. This is taught in some martial art styles as a defense against a two-armed grab from behind.

    The BG in this scenario doesn't have a double-arm hold on the wife, he's got her by one arm. Either he's got a handful of her hair or, more likely, an arm around her neck. The other arm is occupied with a gun, alternately pointing it at her head and at you.

    The fast drop is accomplished as described above, in that the legs have to come up, but at the same time the body should not tense - the defender wants to go full "dead weight" in a heartbeat. This is not easy and requires practice. This would, though, offer a clear shot at the perp.

    One thing the "I'd take the shot" crowd should consider is that the BG is unlikely to be frozen, like a paper target, offering you a nice, clear and steady target. Whatever solution there is to this problem will probably involve teamwork with the wife and/or some kind of communication with the perp.

    I'm worried about him using the wife as a shield as he retreats to the door. He may plan to kill her out of spite as he makes his exit, as some others have mentioned.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by swatspyder View Post
    It may be hard to hear, but they only have two options.

    1. You tell the guy he can put his gun down and release your SO and he gets to run as fast as he %#^@!&* can out of the place.

    2. You tell him that if he shoots and kills your SO, he's getting n amount of rounds to the chest and head, through or around your deceased SO, and is leaving in a %#^@!&* body bag.
    [QUOTE=TSKnight;1667033]The BG has already shown he's not afraid to shoot. NO WAY I am giving up my weapon!

    BG has two choices:

    1. Drop his weapon, let my wife go and leave. (cops can pick him up later)
    2. shoot my wife and leave in a body-bag.

    #1 needs to be in that order, pushing my wife away while still holding his weapon means I take him out as he is still a threat.

    ^^^^^^Very valid and plausable thoughts^^^^^^^


    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Since my wife is involved that means I'm not working at the moment.

    My first instinct is to contain the situation but in reality, in this case I want him to flee, and no I won't be chasing after him. I need to make him acutely aware that his only chace to live is to not harm his hostage. If he fails in that I will not be contained by laws, morals or any other restraint.

    I will tell the cashier to give him a bag full of money. I'm not going to risk a rescue shot when this may be avoided by just giving him the money. Maybe you all are John Rambo, but I know I'm not. The risk is too great in this case when there are other avenues available that will allow one to reach the desired destination.

    The desired destination is badguy gone and spouse unharmed.

    Biker
    ^^^This is a maybe, due to the fact that he has shot someone^^^

    and has shown right off the bat that he means business by taking a hostage "just for a simple holdup"


    Quote Originally Posted by MrGray View Post
    This robber does not know several important things:

    1. Mrs. Gray is armed.
    2. Mrs. Gray has been through the same handgun defense training I have, including disarm/retention.
    3. Despite her usually sunny disposition, seeing the employee get shot almost certainly made Mrs. Gray very, very grumpy.



    Afterward we're ready to deal with his buddies, who might be stupid enough to do something other than flee.

    Sucks to be him. Too bad no one told him that sometimes people who look as harmless as Mrs. Gray carry concealed handguns and know how to use them.
    ^^^FUNNY^^^^^

    Quote Originally Posted by HKinNY View Post
    You all missed the only correct answer. Tell BG listen we are going thru a bitter divorse and she is tring to take my kids away from me. Now that my kids are safe over here. I dont give a hoot what happens to her. Take her with you so I can sit down and finish my diner. If this statement does not get the BG to have a puzzled look on his face and lower his gun for a second. Nothing will. So as he lowers firearm he is getting a headshot.

    I will deal with the Mrs being pissed later.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I don't know if I would rather succumb to the BG shooting me,OR deal with the wrath of the Mrs. in the aftermath of this response


    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    I will actually have pity on the BG, as my wife will be opening a can of whoop arse, and she does not play fair. She reacts very violently to anyone touching her/grabbing her, especially by surprise.

    She has no training other than growing up with two brothers, and she is not petite. It would be like trying to grab a large wild cat that has not eaten for 4 days and was starting to munch on a deer.

    The problem is going to be getting her to stop once the threat is ended.

    [wife] Why didn't you shoot him?

    [me] He no longer qualified as a threat once you gouged out his eyes, broke his jaw & nose, and pounded his manhood into his stomach. I don't know how were going to get your shoe out of there.

    Now playing this out as the OP qualified the parameters;



    If I have 15 seconds, then I have more than ample time to be able to keep aim and make the slow precise shot. No need to reply, just breathe, keep aim and squeeze.


    Of course this is all Sunday morning talk at the kitchen table with my computer and a coup of coffee. The only commands that I may hear and respond to is "Stop...Trigger...Muzzle...Cover..." Like the majority of people on this forum, I have never been in a situation that I have needed to use my carry in a SD situation, hope that I never have to, and I am going to hope that my training and practice hold true.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Still going to be laughing my &%$ off for DAYS after reading this!!!!


    I believe in the DROP command to the hostage and begin your finger excercises for the day by sending lead toward the thug ASAP.
    The reality of the common everyday knuckledragger in todays world holds hard and fast that they are incapable of compassion,except in regards to thier own loved ones, so relying on them to NOT shoot yours is morally bankrupt. I think by saying "I am a decent shot, but could'nt hit him from there" just may be their death sentence in the scenario. If you love your family member who is in this, You had better get serious and aim hard and shoot fast!!



    If at first you do succeed, try not to look astonished.
    I would rather die with good men than hide with cowards
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy."

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  5. #80
    Member Array Nikolai's Avatar
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    I have given thought to this scenario, though due to my wife's "sensibilities", discussing this topic with her isn't really possible. However, I do echo other sentiments that I would make the BG aware that whether or not he lives is directly linked to whether or not my wife lives. I will also make clear that he can take whatever money he wants and he can leave, but that I will not permit him to take my wife or harm her without consequence. That is not to say that I won't shoot if he lets her go yet retains his weapon, but I don't have to tell him that.

    IF I have to take a shot, I actually want to take this in a slightly different direction. Depending on the body positioning of the BG and the way in which he is handling his firearm (moving it back and forth between us/other patrons/employees), I may consider a body shot on him first (my carry is .40), and use the subsequent opening to follow up with repeated shots. I'm not going to count on a head shot, especially if the BG is remotely competent and hiding his head behind my wife. I am also fully aware of the strong possibility that though I'm a "range commando", my skills as a pistolero would probably be diminished in this type of situation.

    I'm also open to ideas of deception, but it depends on the circumstances and the environment in which this is taking place.

  6. #81
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    i'm not giving up my gun... mexican stand off would happen and I want hium to realize he can either only leave, or die after he shoots someone
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  7. #82
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Brass. Generally speaking a shot to the head that penetrates into the brain will be devastating enough to end the fight. As far as the hand clench that is why I stated in the post that the hammer is down.
    On a revolver it would take a deliberate strong pull to the trigger to make it go off, not saying it could not, but dont know if the reaction to the head shot could or would do that.
    If your point of aim was just under the nose and they bullet penetrated to the medulla oblongata, brain stem, there would be no reaction he would just fall.
    A little personal experience affirmation of the effectiveness of this if the MO is penetrated. Suspect is sitting in a vehicle, doors and windows closed, in drivers seat with victim next to him. Susp's right arm is around the neck of victim and his left hand holds a cocked pistol to her left temple. I and sniper are 12-15yds from drivers side window. I am running coms for sniper as no on body or vox then. After hours of negotiating word comes to take the shot. Victim leans her head forward 1-2", leaving about a 2" window for the shot. Sniper takes the shot. Susp's head immediately slumps backward onto back of seat, no firing of the weapon, no nothing, just collapse. Uninjured victim is safely extracted from vehicle.

  8. #83
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    I have already explained to my wife that I will not be relinquishing control of my firearm in such a situation. The problem in the scenario is the dirtbag with a gun to my wife's head, not me having my legal CCW with me. The only thing that will keep that person from potentially killing her, myself, or other innocent people around me is the fact that doing so will invoke an immediate potentially lethal response.

    I could give a rip what else he says, does, whatever. I will keep my gun in my hand and on him until he leaves the area without any hostages or a LEO tells me to put it down.

  9. #84
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I am surprised at the number of people who unequivovally believe that, the threat of lethal force (handgun) will keep an armed criminal who has already shot someone from shooting someone else and are willing to risk the life of a loved on on that belief.

  10. #85
    Senior Member Array Hot Wing's Avatar
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    Very rough deal but its on being he has shot one person .

    Deep breath and empty the mag or wheel

  11. #86
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    I am surprised at the number of people who unequivovally believe that, the threat of lethal force (handgun) will keep an armed criminal who has already shot someone from shooting someone else and are willing to risk the life of a loved on on that belief.
    Howdy Guantes, I'm not sure that some are advocating that they would put their loved ones in jeapardy exactly as much as they are just expressing an view that shooting someone in the leg for trying to grab their weapon does not make them a killer automatically or they would have killed that individual as with this scenario (and as I pointed out), me personally, I was just pointing out that by shooting the clerk in the leg when he could have easily have just killed him for trying such a stunt led me to believe that he was not willing to go all the way into the killing field portion yet as some are trying to point out. That was my only point. I already put down my feelings on the subject and what I would do, I was just trying to reel in the way out thinkers who were saying he's a killer (no proof of those statements) in fact up to that point, just the opposite.
    Last edited by Guardian; June 20th, 2010 at 02:32 PM. Reason: Spelling mistakes.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  12. #87
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guardian View Post
    Howdy Guantes, I'm not sure that some are advocating that they would put their loved ones in jeapardy exactly as much as they are just expressing an view that shooting someone in the leg for trying to grab their weapon does not make them a killer automatically or they would have killed that individual as with this scenario (and as I pointed out), me personally, I was just pointing out that by shooting the clerk in the leg when he could have easily have just killed him for trying such a stunt led me to believe that he was not willing to go all the way into the killing field portion yet as some are trying to point out. That was my only point. I already put down my feelings on the subject and what I would do, I was just trying to reel in the way out thinkers who were saying he's a killer (no proof of those statements) in fact up to that point, just the opposite.
    I agree that the leg shooting may leave some doubts as to the lethal intent of the perp. Then again it may have just been a snap shot to stop the clerk, without thought of lethality one way or the other.

    I am not out to flame anyone one way or the other. I think that it is an excellent point for discussion, to get people thinking.

    I admit that I may be biased, long experience with the criminal element has made me that way.

    I view it that the life of my loved one is either in my hands or the hands of the criminal and I prefer the former. No doubt, there are questionable factors involved if you take the shot. I do not dispute that, but I prefer that to relying on the threat of lethal force to intimidate an armed criminal. I do not consider myself able to determine the intent of an armed criminal in a couple seconds, if others can, they are better than I.

    I have known many criminals that have been shot once or multiple times with handguns and they are not intimidated by them or the thought of getting shot again by them.

    I guess the bottom line is that I believe more in my ability than I do in the successful intimidation of an armed criminal by the threat of a handgun.

    As I have stated in other posts, each must make their own decision in a situation and live with the consequences of that decision. All we can do here is possibly provide different points for consideration that may aid them in their decision making. In the end you stand alone with your decision.

  13. #88
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    I agree that the leg shooting may leave some doubts as to the lethal intent of the perp. Then again it may have just been a snap shot to stop the clerk, without thought of lethality one way or the other.

    I am not out to flame anyone one way or the other. I think that it is an excellent point for discussion, to get people thinking.

    I admit that I may be biased, long experience with the criminal element has made me that way.

    I view it that the life of my loved one is either in my hands or the hands of the criminal and I prefer the former. No doubt, there are questionable factors involved if you take the shot. I do not dispute that, but I prefer that to relying on the threat of lethal force to intimidate an armed criminal. I do not consider myself able to determine the intent of an armed criminal in a couple seconds, if others can, they are better than I.

    I have known many criminals that have been shot once or multiple times with handguns and they are not intimidated by them or the thought of getting shot again by them.

    I guess the bottom line is that I believe more in my ability than I do in the successful intimidation of an armed criminal by the threat of a handgun.

    As I have stated in other posts, each must make their own decision in a situation and live with the consequences of that decision. All we can do here is possibly provide different points for consideration that may aid them in their decision making. In the end you stand alone with your decision.
    I know you were not flaming and I didn't take it that way, like you my friend, I was just pointing out another source for discussion. Like you thought, I'm taking the shot and not putting my wifes life in anyones hands but mine and she knows that.

    Stay safe partner.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  14. #89
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Howdy Mr. Guantes.

    I'm pretty good with a gun, and have in-depth almost daily expirience with the criminal element. The kicker, for me, is my wife being the hostage. I love her more than I love any stranger, and will do more for her, and even do things for her that I wouldn't even do for myself.

    If all I had to do was make a COM shot, no problem. Deep Brain shot at that distance is not something I am willing to do when the stakes are so high. If it was a COM shot I'd go so far as to take it with my support hand, instead of my primary hand, as I do have a measure of confidence in my ability.

    Again, we are back to the crux of the problem. For me, and my ability, I will not be taking that shot. I do understand you wanting to put your faith in your ability instead of the whim of the attacker, but on this we will most likely have different ways around the barn so to speak.

    I do not consider the fact that the badguy shot the clerk in the leg as a sign of not wanting to kill. Anytime you point a gun at someone, in my view, be it the leg, foot, head, hand, chest or what-not, you are saying that you are willing to destroy and kill that person.

    There are no "hard and fast" rules here. While we are reading this situation on paper we are not confronted with the real issue and some of our sensory perceptions of the event is not available. While it is nice, and necessary in my opinion, to "what-if" situations, we won't know what we will in fact do in THAT situation until we are in fact confronted with the situation.

    One may perceive something in the offender that requires an instantaneous lethal response that someone else may not perceive. I have no doubt that your past expirience will allow you to read a situation different than Suzy Soccer Mom. You will still have to hope that your perceptions are correct, just as I and anyone else will.

    It is very easy, reletively speaking, for someone to sit back after the fact and MMQ. It's a lot harder when you are the boots on the ground making the call, as I'm sure you know. All one can do is plan and strategize, while hoping for the best.

    There has been much discussion due to the topic and questions raised. For that I thank everyone involved in this discussion. Much food for thought has been brought up in this and other threads, and it has caused me to reconsider some things, and for that I thank you. Take care and stay safe all.

    Mr. Guantes, you bring about many fine discussion points and cause one to think about things. That, to me, is the mark of a learned man. To you sir I lift my glass.

    Biker

  15. #90
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Thank You, Sir.

    You bring out many valid and appropriate points yourself. One of the most important being that each must make their decision based an the various attributes they bring to the table, including their own perception of the situation.

    The only purpose of MMQ, IMO, is in an attempt to understand and possibly determine a better course of action, should one be confronted with the same or similar situation. Criticism, without having been in the shoes of the participant is false bravado.

    May we (you and I) grow older with a boring lack of hazardous situations.

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