June 19th, 2010 06:16 PM
unthinkable horrible scenario-based on recent news
OK, in the past couple of days Gunnybunny has posted 2 real-life "in the news" reports of young teenage kids being the actors in murders. This raised some questions in my mind about "what if" scenarios. It was suggested to me by anther member that I start a thread on this topic in the scenario section. Mods, if you think this is too much of a repeat, please feel free to close or merge the thread
My original question deals with a 13 yr old who coldly murdered an unresisting robber victim. I suggested that perhaps, due to kids not being able to distinguish a "real person" from a video-game/imagination non-person, whether we are actually in MORE danger from a child who doesn't see you as a real flesh-and-blood, living person.
So, here is the scenario: you and your spouse/sig. other, good friend, etc are out, having enjoyed a movie or dinner, etc. Your SA is up as normal. As you are walking to your car, you see a single (one)kid, about 12, walking towards you. He gets within about 10 feet and pulls out a nice shiny, chrome-plated revolver and points it at you and tells you to hand over all your stuff. What do you do now???
This quote post part of my previous comments and musings about this kind of scenario
So, I value all the collected wisdom and insight here on this forum. Let the comments begin.............
Enviroment has a tremendous impact on a child's ability to to perform one of the most critical tasks in the transition from child to adult: this is the ability distinguish the difference between the child's "inner reality" and external, objective outer reality. Let me illustrate: Way back when, while in High School, we had a family move into our small town--one of the kids became a member of my small town high school class. This kid was always perceiving other people as giving him lip or disrespecting him. He would constantly and reflexively interpret a normal disagreement as disrespect. Of course this meant that he got in lots of fights. He later, unsurprisingly, went on to a life of crime and ended up doing hard-time. This kid was unable (or unwilling) to make the emotional growth needed so that he could step back and objectively look at the world around himself and self-evaluate. Good parents should normally be able to help their kids with this process (Johnny--what in the world were you thinking when you did that??)
What I am gettin at here is that the kid in the OP likely does not have that capacity to truly distingiush the REAL difference between shooting somebody in a video game and shooting a real person--they are both just "things" that are not "real" to him. In my mind, this may actually make kids like this much more dangerous.....
Scott, US Army 1974-2004
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
- Ronald Reagan
June 19th, 2010 06:20 PM
Don't think I'll speculate, but one thing I can tell you from experience in a combat zone is that a 12 year old with a gun can kill you just as dead as a 32 year old with a gun.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"
June 19th, 2010 06:28 PM
OK, firstly, saying that video games are to blame for teens acting violently is absurd. At the end of the day, it all comes back to a complete lack of parenting/parental supervision. I am old enough to know better, but young enough to have played may fair share of violent games, but I had a mother who raised me right. I have never committed a violent crime. I would be willing to bet that noone on this forum who had a parent who was present and involved did either.
Now that I have gotten that out of the way, I would fein reaching or my wallet while turning my strong side away form the BG so he dose not immediately seem me draw, tell the rest of the group to drop as I take aim and fire. Fortunately, my experience with my weapon almost definately is superior to his experience with his... and he with a snubbie revolver, me with my 4.25" .45I have a much better chance of hitting him than he does of hitting me.
Going back to my initial argument, this child clearly has not been brought up to understand the concept of consequence or the value of life, and clearly, the threat that he will injure or kill me, or my loved ones is more than imminent. If I do not act, someone will die. If I act, even if I die, I have saved others.
"You will not rise to the occasion and you will not default to your level of training. You WILL ONLY default to the level of training you have mastered."
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-Phoenix Arms Raven
June 19th, 2010 06:32 PM
This may be a minor detail, but adolescents have no trouble distinguishing the difference between a video game and real life (unless they have a genuine mental disorder). The problem is that they lack the ability to fully appreciate the long-term consequences of their actions in the same way that adults do. Access to the concept of violence has been around in one form or another (movies, television, stories, history, and folklore) for thousands of years and the interactivity of video games, though unique, falls short of being magical.
Nevertheless, if I found myself in the situation you described I would probably give a little more thought to the possibility of taking him down without using lethal methods. In the end, however, I'm still staring at a valid threat to my life; and that kid stands a good chance of getting shot as a result. If my wife or kid are a part of this scenario, he stands an even better chance of getting shot.
"The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
June 19th, 2010 06:44 PM
Something that I find disturbing about this is that in such a situation if you were forced to use lethal force, that the perception of being a "Kid" wouldn't constitute as a reasonable threat in the eyes of a jury.
Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott
There's also a disparity of force and size to consider.
I know someone who was attacked by a guy with a hammer and after using enough force to "stop" him the attacker is suing him because he was larger than the attacker and was training in martial arts even though the attacker was the initial aggressor and attacked him.
My point is that you'll have to be able to communicate effectively to a jury about why you were in fear for your life. (the jury will have their own bias you'll need to take into account)
June 19th, 2010 06:51 PM
While I won't delve into whether he can distiguish between REAL LIFE and a Video Game, it IS a proven fact that adolescent teen's brains are not developed to discern/ascertain/understand the long term consequences of anything they do.
That's a shame... Unless I know for certain that the gun is a toy, I'm going to draw on him... If he does not surrender immediately, he will probably die.
If his gun is real... I may even get shot... but in the end, the chances of my survival are greater than his...
June 19th, 2010 07:00 PM
Gun in my face...1st chance I get I'm pulling and shooting. Don't care how old the triggerman is.
"If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."
June 19th, 2010 07:13 PM
He would get my decoy wallet, carried on my weak side. 1st chance, I would draw my weapon.
Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
Richard M Nixon
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”
June 19th, 2010 07:15 PM
I am confused on "disparity of force". He has a gun, you have gun. Where is the disparity?
Originally Posted by kobyashi
June 19th, 2010 07:39 PM
sorry but his age means nothing. he is threatning to deny my children the gift of growing up with there father and mother. I have a right to defend my self. he has to live or die by his choices.
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -1792, James Madison
There are always too many Democratic, Republican and never enough U.S. congressmen.
June 19th, 2010 07:47 PM
The more time one takes to assess the seriousness of a gun being pointed at you by a BG, regardless of age, then the less time YOU have to control YOUR survival and the survival of YOUR family. You and your family are in jeopardy based on someone who has the ability to kill you with their gun and has already demonstrated their intent by pointing it at you. Does Ability, Opportunity/Intent, Jeopardy sound familiar?
Push your family out of the way, Get Off The X and defend yourself and your family. I'll let the media interview "lil Johnny's Mommie" and let everyone hear her say what a good kid he was and that he just went to school and came home and studied and played video games. SIGH!!! JMO
Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.
June 19th, 2010 08:12 PM
June 19th, 2010 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by dunndw
You can educate ignorance, you can't fix stupid
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June 19th, 2010 08:29 PM
This scenario is one that I have contemplated, recently.
Honestly, I don't know how I would react. That's why discussing it here, is a good thing.
There's a disconnect in my mind, whether or not I'm morally justified in killing a kid, even if it is self defense.
If I respond with deadly force, I'll be instantly labeled a baby killer. I have to admit that I'm worried if a reasonable juror would see it from my perspective.
If I don't respond, I run the very real risk of me or my spouse being killed. If we subscribe to the theory that the kid has a disorder of some kind, due to over exposure of video games, then the threat has just become more violent. Because the kid knows no consequences. Therefore the probability of him killing is increased, there's a good chance he'll shoot to kill, even if his demands are met.
Another dimension to this scenario, is the trend of gangs of young kids ambushing and beating people nigh unto death, to rob them. What if you're ambushed by more than one, all packing guns? Or clubs, or bats and bottles?
Can we articulate our defense and prove AOJ?
Trust in God and keep your powder dry
"A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source
June 19th, 2010 09:22 PM
Age/sex/race plays no part in it. No matter what the influence is, he has a gun, he has threatened me and loved ones with it, the first opportunity that avails itself I take him out.
Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.
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