Citizen Patrol - Armed but unarmed

Citizen Patrol - Armed but unarmed

This is a discussion on Citizen Patrol - Armed but unarmed within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I live in Israel and last week I did my first shift on our local citizen patrol. Basically we are a neighborhood watch under the ...

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Thread: Citizen Patrol - Armed but unarmed

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array BenGoodLuck's Avatar
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    Citizen Patrol - Armed but unarmed

    I live in Israel and last week I did my first shift on our local citizen patrol. Basically we are a neighborhood watch under the auspices of the local police.

    The rules for citizen patrols in Israel are definitely different than what I was familiar with in the US. When I lived in New York, I was a NYPD auxiliary police officer. We did not carry guns, just night sticks, and although we carried handcuffs, our powers of arrest were very limited. We were basically eyes and ears for the NYPD.

    In Israel, we also don't have police powers but we can make arrests if the perp agrees to remain in custody! In other words, we can ask the perp to remain detained and if they listen, we can keep them "under arrest" until the police arrive. If they run away, we can't really pursue. We have police radios and can communicate with the police and we have to patrol in at least pairs. We can patrol on foot or by car, if we qualify for the driving patrol.

    We can carry weapons - I posted a week or so ago that I qualified at the police range by firing a M1 Garand. On my shift, I carried a more modern version of the M1, with a folding stock. When I sign out a weapon, I have to keep it either on my person at all times or in my locked house in a secure location.

    But here's the kicker. We are not allowed to carry ammo in the weapon. The police issued me the M1 and two full ammo clips, but I have to patrol with the M1 unloaded. We can only load the ammo if we feel our life is in danger. I know this makes no sense, but no one ever said the government or bureaucracies or supposed to follows rules of logic.

    I know that my SA was on full alert during my patrol. Luckily for me the patrol time was 3 am to 6 am on Saturday am, and given the fact that Saturday is the Jewish Sabbath and all construction work shuts down for the Sabbath, our neighborhood was very quiet. No cars coming in and out; no construction workers in the neighborhood (we live in a new neighborhood that is still under a lot of development).

    Saturday is probably the easiest day to do the patrol. The great thing was that I had to sign the M1 out on Friday and got to keep it all day Friday and Saturday. When I attended synagogue on Saturday, I had to carry the M1 into services and I had it at my side during the entire service. It was very interesting to see the reactions of people - native Israelis basically didn't even give me a second look. Ex-pat Americans often did a double take and you could sense their fear at times, or more accurately, their total cluelessness as to why I was carrying a rifle. Several people did congratulate me for being in the citizen patrol, as the main reason for the patrol is to keep an eye on our neighborhood.

    So my question is this: given the limitations I have to work with, what would be your recommendations? I was thinking of patrolling with a clip in my hand ready to be inserted if needed. Have you ever heard of other situations where someone is required to have an unloaded weapon?
    Ben

    Cogito, ergo armatum sum. I think, therefore I am armed. (Don Mann, The Modern Day Gunslinger; the ultimate handgun training manual)



  2. #2
    VIP Member Array BenGoodLuck's Avatar
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    Picture of the M1 I carried

    I found this picture online - it's the exact same model I carried:



    Next time I'll take my own picture.
    Ben

    Cogito, ergo armatum sum. I think, therefore I am armed. (Don Mann, The Modern Day Gunslinger; the ultimate handgun training manual)


  3. #3
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    For what it's worth, I have never heard of anyone required to carry an unloaded weapon. A rifle with no ammo is pretty worthless unless you break down to use it like a club. I don't blame you about wanting to carry a clip in your hand but I would think that you're hand is going to fatigue at some point and you're going to get tired of carrying that clip. If you don't already have one, you might look into getting some sort of belt that can easily store your clip for easy access.

    With the tight restrictions they have on you I'm sure this is a waste of time to ask you but do they have any restrictions on you from carrying other weapons? If it was permissible, I think I would carry some kind of knife on my person as well as a good flash light and maybe even some pepper spray or mace, etc.

    Just because they have tight restrictions on you don't forget that ANYTHING can be a weapon if you get in a bad situation - if you have to, use a screw driver, a pencil or whatever you can get your hands on if you have to defend yourself. It's been said here many times before but your brain is the most effective weapon you have. With that being said, mentally prepare yourself for different scenarios - never stop using your brain, exercise appropriate caution and listen to your conscience.

    I hope for you to have a safe call to service.

    Grace & Peace,

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    Member Array IntrepidDad's Avatar
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    US National Guard?

    I thought that when President Bush sent the National Guard down to the US / Mexican border they were ordered to not put ammo in their rifles. Their role was a support role to the primary Border Patrol.

    Can anyone confirm this?

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    Here in our little town in Central Texas we have a active neighborhood watch that patrols the late night hours.

    We have the support of the county Sheriff and we are to be eyes and ears on the road to help the Sheriff department.

    We have police scanners and use our cell phones to call in what does not seem right to us.

    There are very plain rules we have to follow, but we can and are advised to be armed and ready, but to use reverse gear as our first option.

    Wife and I patrol 10pm to 2am one night a week.

    Wife and I have been off line for about 2 months now but plan to start back next week.
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
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    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
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    Member Array sandman1212's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IntrepidDad View Post
    I thought that when President Bush sent the National Guard down to the US / Mexican border they were ordered to not put ammo in their rifles. Their role was a support role to the primary Border Patrol.

    Can anyone confirm this?
    This would not surprise me, I am doing a detail with the National Guard to account for equipment coming back from Iraq. Some are sensitive items, night vision, weapons ect. We had to post 2 armed guards while everyone else was released for the evening. They were issued 9mm's and 1 mag a piece but told that the magazines were not to touch the weapons "no matter what". Kinda silly...whats the point?!?
    KAHR CW45, RIA 1911 Officer, S&W Sigma 9MM, Savage 1907 .32cal(BUG)

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    This kind of thinking is nothing new. When the NG was deployed in Watts in 65', they were not issued any ammo. That lasted about an hour, until they started taking fire.
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    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Loading an M1 is a bit more intensive than loading just about any other rifle. That sucks!
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
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    Not sure how things in today's Army is, but when I was in the MP's at the gates did not have loaded weapons. They had mags ready, but could only load with permission from the watch commander. This was during the Vietnam era and we were a highly classified installation. Even the cooks had to have TS/C clearances.
    NRA Life Member

  10. #10
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    How do you carry your mags now and would a belt pouch like this work?

    http://www.keepshooting.com/firearma...tock-pouch.htm

    These are quite common and inexpensive at gunshows here. If it is a better alternative maybe I or someone else on the forum could pickup one and send it to you.

    Oh I know the stupidity of armed but unarmed, when pulling security augmentee duty in RVN we were issued an M-16 and 10 mags of ammo. Weapons were not to be loaded unless we were fired upon and received authorization to lock and load from command post.
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
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    BentCursor are you carrying and M1 Garand or M1 Carbine? The pic is an M1 Carbine. If this is the case military units in many places carry a rifle with no mag inserted.
    It is a simple task of simply inserting a mag and racking the bolt. If it is an M1 Garand little bit more entailed. Let us know.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array BenGoodLuck's Avatar
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    I think we qualified with a Garand; but we are actually carrying the Carbine. The M1 we qualified with had a wood stock but it accepted a multi-round clip from the bottom. I'm not sure if it really was a Grand, but I found a picture online that looked a lot like the weapon we qualified with.

    The one we actually carry is like the one pictured. Like I said, I'll take a picture of it next time I carry.
    Ben

    Cogito, ergo armatum sum. I think, therefore I am armed. (Don Mann, The Modern Day Gunslinger; the ultimate handgun training manual)


  13. #13
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    if it loaded from the bottem, it aint a garand
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    The picture is of a M1 carbine. It takes a 20 round MAGAZINE. The magazine is loaded from the bottom. A M1 Garand takes an 8 round enbloc clip. It is loaded from the top. It also shoot a full .30 cal. round. Did you get an M1 thumb?
    Semper Fi

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    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    if it loaded from the bottem, it aint a garand
    bm-59 or bm-69

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