Defending against unruly mob/civil unrest

Defending against unruly mob/civil unrest

This is a discussion on Defending against unruly mob/civil unrest within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ive done multiple searches in hopes to find some thoughts regarding the legality of defending your home/family from mobs or civil unrest. Not a permanent ...

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Thread: Defending against unruly mob/civil unrest

  1. #1
    Member Array Beretta's Avatar
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    Defending against unruly mob/civil unrest

    Ive done multiple searches in hopes to find some thoughts regarding the legality of defending your home/family from mobs or civil unrest. Not a permanent breakdown of rule of law-however a temporary breakdown in civil order. Local law enforcement is too occupied to maintain order in neighborhoods. Id rather dig in rather than bug out, but have a BOB ready as a last resort.

    The senario(which is what im planning to do)- Youve prepped for a situation like this. So you hunker down and dig in. As you watch the news you notice people running down the street and side walks out infront of your home. Some are starting go kick in doors. Dragging your neighbors out and taking whatever supplies they have.

    You mostlikely already have your AK/AR/12ga handy since youre already expecting the worst. What do you do?

    What Id like to do is start firing (hopefully Ill have my AR with a 90rd drum by then) from inside the house at anyone assaulting my neighbors-while hoping the gunfire will demoralize or disperse the mob. If the mob turns and focuses on my home I would continue to fire to hold them back. Id rather start firing from a distance rather than wait for the mob to enter my home and enact the castle doctrine.

    BUT- When the dust settles, the bodies just dont disappear. The bodies will still be there, and I will be liable for my actions when law and order is restored.

    A little about my situation and neighborhood. Its not a gated community. If you have google maps search "deltona, florida". You will see its a spaghetti bowl. No street flows in a straight line. You cant realistically defend a street or block with all the curbs. Have two vacant homes on my street. Nearest major city is Orlando, followed by Daytona Beach.

    My home isnt the largest nor is it the hardest target. It has a large glass sliding door in the rear. Single floor. Yard isnt fenced. I get along with all my neighbors. However the only like minded neighbor is an elderly man next door. He owns one pistol with a box of 9mm cartridges, an old sears 12gauge with a pitted barrel, and an old marlin .22 thats also corroded. All other neighbors are either elderly and or severely unprepared for such a situation.

    So im pretty much alone on the defensive side. Sorry for such a long post. I hope its not a dumb post- its something im genuinely concerned about. Mobs and riots are a very real thing. Mobs and riots happen when a local basketball team wins. Where the rioters are not hungry, and are disorganized. How much worse are they going to be when theyre desperate, hungry, and organized? No one is going to put their hands on my wife, or take the items that we've worked so hard to put asside, to increase our chances of survival.

    Will check posts tomorrow morning- g'night all. Stay safe!
    Last edited by Beretta; June 27th, 2010 at 11:52 PM. Reason: Did some underlining.
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  2. #2
    Member Array Beretta's Avatar
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    Also- When I did some searches, found that Korean shop owners successfully defended their businesses with AK's. How did they pull it off? Did they actually shoot rioters? If they did, from how far? How does the law work in a situation like this? Thanks again!
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  3. #3
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    If local civil unrest/local anarchy did take place in this area, I am prepared to defend my family and my home just as if it were a 'thief in the night'.
    My neighbor is a cop...he's FULLY prepared.
    My other neighbors are in for some surprises being unarmed and unprepared. I've already mentioned to them to leave me alone if the SHTF.
    Not too many people have read about what happened in Argentina just a few years ago, but it's an eye-opener.

    I don't think that the world will collapse, but people better be prepared to hunker down for a while and be willing to defend their 'castles'...I'm not worried about other castles.
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  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Having been in a number of these things, I will give you my take on it.

    Most mobs are are either not armed, or armed with sticks, rocks and bottles, and perhaps a few handguns. Rifles in riot areas are usually maintained inside locations to snipe at LE or FD, not carried around. That's not to say there couldn't be long guns, but there are usually not.

    If you wait until you see them running in front of your house, you are acting too late. If you have decided to stay and hunker down, you should be watching your street as far as you can in either direction.

    Unless you are very unlucky, the mob will probably only come from one direction. You should be able to identify the residence looting from some distance away. Then you have IMO two choices. One, to turn/stop them befor they get to your house or wait and try to prevent them from approaching your house.

    If I was to try to turn/stop them befor they got to my house, I would use a shotgun and skip buckshot off the street, but I would have my AK with me. This WILL turn the mob and maintain a low probability of lethality. In one of the ELA riots while I was there, three deps and a Sgt turned a mob estimated at four to five hundred using this method.

    If I was to try to prevent them from approaching my house I would take a position on the roof as you cannot see enough from inside the house. Staying inside the house might provide somewhat better cover/concealment for you but with your inhibited vision, your house could be surrounded befor you realized it. I would not want to try to prevent entry to my house that might occur at several locations around the house at once. Here agains I would initially use a shotgun, but would have my AK with me.

    As to the legal possibilities, they are too numerable to get into. You deal with that after its over.

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
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    The rules of justification would still apply in times of civil unrest. I would think.

    My philosophy is, just because there is a break down of law, that doesn't give me the right to break the law".

    But, I'd do whatever it took to protect my family and me, just as any other time.
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
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  6. #6
    Member Array Beretta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post

    If you wait until you see them running in front of your house, you are acting too late. If you have decided to stay and hunker down, you should be watching your street as far as you can in either direction.
    Thats part of my concern. My neighborhoods layout has so many twists and turns. The street im on either T's off onto another street or turns 90 degrees just three houses down in either direction. So I can only see a few houses down in either direction. I would only see a mob until they were right on top of me.

    I agree Varob, justification would still apply. Itll get sorted out after the dust settles.
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  7. #7
    Member Array charlie1826's Avatar
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    I have thought of three different reactions to this type of a scenario. The different reactions will depend on the mob (location, size, actions, armament, etc...) and if I have been given any orders such as a recall by my squadron.
    1. We grab what we need, our BOBs, and the dogs (and soon the baby ) and we get to the base. Our base is less than a mile from our house. This way we are pretty safe, most mobs won't mess with a military base, but we run the risk of coming home to nothing.
    2. Dig in. We have supplies to last a few days (trying to build it up to at least 2 weeks). There is only one point of access to my house, unless they want to get ladders and try climbing into my 2nd story windows. So we would hole up and anything that tries to come in gets shot.
    3. Pretty much the same as #2 but like Guantes idea of being on the roof, I would be on the roof with my .308 and my sidearm, and the wife would be inside watching the point of entry with the AR and her sidearm. I like this idea because on my roof I could remain unexposed (behind me is a huge field that you can see anything coming for a good 2 miles) and it gives me a great view of anything coming our direction. If people were setting houses on fire this would definitely be my choice because from inside you wouldn't know until its too late and with one point of entry to my house that is a bad situation.
    As far as helping neighbors and such, if I had a clean shot and one of my neighbors was in trouble I would take it and deal with legality later. In a mob situation any threat to my neighbors is a threat to me. Plus most of my neighbors are military also and are armed.
    So those are my options and thoughts. I just hope that none of us ever have to face that
    Last edited by charlie1826; June 28th, 2010 at 06:58 AM. Reason: Edited last paragraph.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Big difference between defending a business in a strip mall and a home in a rat maze. IIRC there was more than one shop owner on the roof with a rifle during the RK riots.

    I absolutely do not want to be caught in even a medium sized city like Denver in the event of anarchy. No way 1 person can defend an entire house against a group of 10+ intent on getting in.

    I do need to get a BOB put together. I already have a variety of routes planned to get out of Dodge either by vehicle or on foot. Grateful I live on the western edge of the city.

    The house and items within are just things and can be replaced if needed. Most of it will do me no good in the event of someone pushing the reset button.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  9. #9
    Member Array Beretta's Avatar
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    Sticks, that's what I was thinking. If things get dicey, just pack up documents, photos, a few supplies and get out. My house could be approached from virtually any angle with multiple entry points into the home. No advantage there.
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  10. #10
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    There are some compelling thoughts expressed in this video of some Korean store owners talking about the RK riots. Watch the video and you'll see a clip of some of owners armed on a store rooftop.

    I went hunting for this because it confirms my memory - the reports were that the defenders had shotguns and handguns, not "rifles" per se. The ones who were armed managed to save their shops. Some who were unarmed lost their stores to arson.

    As for this thread, there are some problems to consider, but it really depends on where you live and what your neighborhood is like. In the sort of semi-urban, semi-suburban kind of area I'm in, any mob massing on my street would be composed of my neighbors.

    What, am I going to shoot Sarah, the teenage kid who mows my lawn? Am I going to kill Mike, the guy who helps me mill parts for my roadster? Do I gun down Nick, the retired highway patrol cop and his lovely wife who share their love of gardening with us? Not gonna do that.

    This isn't meant to be a lot of tear-jerking bleeding-heart polemics, but a recognition that my neighbors are people that I know whose lives are intertwined with mine, and killing them to defend some canned goods in my pantry sounds like a bad deal. But then, I wouldn't have to. We wouldn't be attacking one another, we'd be forming a neighborhood protection militia, maybe pooling resources and distributing aid among ourselves.

    This gets back to the general idea that in order to best defend yourself against extreme circumstances, you need a LOT more than firepower. I believe that guns are excellent weapons and I own a good number of them. I keep a good stockpile of ammo for each gun. I train often and in a very focused and serious way.

    But I also spend time keeping up good relations with my neighbors. I try to stay active in local politics and try to make my community a better place. Donating your cast-offs to Goodwill and veterans groups, contributing to your foodbank, even volunteering to clean your neighborhood and street-sweeping and caring for your home, lawns and property are all ways you build community and property value.

    When you strengthen your local sense of civic pride and community cohesiveness, you develop the internal strength of character such that in a breakdown everybody won't go mob-crazy in an orgy of looting, but rather act like civilized people who hang tough until order is restored. You prepare for the worst in bad times by bringing out the best in the good.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  11. #11
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    And why would an unruly mob be any less of a threat to you than an individual? I don't know of any law that states you can use lethal force to protect yourself from a deadly threat except from groups of ten or more.

    Anyone in any numbers that carries a rock, brick, bat, or anything else that can be used as a weapon, can present a deadly threat, and I would protect myself from that--especially on my property.
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  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Legally, I think you have some things in your favor.

    Courts have traditionally taken a dim view of riots, looting and mob assault.

    One or two or three against hundreds is an enormous disparity of force.

    Any effort to limit lethality would be viewed in a good light.

    Most would reasonably accept that a mob looting and assaulting to within a few houses of your own, would not all of a sudden quit and leave of its own volition, without any incentive.

    Beretta,

    If you decide to leave, that may be the best option.

    If you decide to stay, if you can spot the mob 3-4 houses away that's 60-80 yards. There is still room to turn them.

  13. #13
    Member Array Beretta's Avatar
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    EVERYONE- thanks for all the thoughts. I'd like to think that I'm over reacting. Like I said before- I have good relations with all my neighbors and would be willing to help them. Its the people a few streets down who may decide to raid other streets other than their own. it may never happen that way, I hope it doesn't. I only have 8 houses on my street- two of which are vacant, two are elderly, one is a low income family, the rest are sheeple. Just like to think ahead, cause when people and their children start going hungry- they're goiing to make the wildest of animals look tame. Don't get me wrong,I'm all for helping my neighbors. I hope it never comes to that.
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  14. #14
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I think that the hungry part relates to a more longer term event than it sounds like you are envisioning. TEOTWAWKI is an entirely different animal.

    The shorter term events are more often looting for wanted "toys", than for food.

  15. #15
    Member Array Griffworks's Avatar
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    I'm with shockwave's position and line of thinking. I live in an upper middle-class neighborhood with nice houses, adjacent to a golf-course (two of my neighbors are ON the golf course), surounded by upper middle- to lower upper-class neighborhoods and are far enough - and inconvenient enough - from Little Rock that any "mobs" would have to be in the mood for a good, long hike to get to us.

    Now, I don't know but maybe a dozen neighbors on our street, but do know that a couple of those nearest to me own firearms - mostly rifles. We're on a first-name basis and I'd like to think we all trust each other enough not to have any problems amongst ourselves. One of my nieghbor has a trouble-making kid, tho, who likely wouldn't last long if the SHTF and he decided to go do some "scrounging" around our 'hood.

    But, to more directly answer the question of how to deal with a mob....

    I'd make sure every magazine and stripper clip that I own was filled to capacity, extra box or two of ammunition was at hand and that every entrance to my house was as secure as I could make it by reinforcing some doors, adding boards to windows and nailing shut the gates to my yard. I'd make sure that I had a BOB for every member of my family ready to go at a moments notice, as well as do my best to keep as much fuel in my vehicles as I could manage.

    Once any riot/mob came in to my neighborhood, I'd likely just bug out. Nothing we have with the exception of some few family heirlooms is worth dying or killing over.

    But if that wasn't really an option for us for some reason, I'd put my kids up on the second floor with my 13 year-old daughter having a handgun and told to shoot anyone coming up the steps - which are immediately accessible thru the front door. I'd shoot warning shots at anyone just walking up the street, but would outright shoot anyone who was harming one of my neighbors or setting fire to houses - provided I could see them and had a clear field of fire. Wife would watch my back as best she could.
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