TN Deputy shot in an unfortunate event. - Page 2

TN Deputy shot in an unfortunate event.

This is a discussion on TN Deputy shot in an unfortunate event. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ctsketch no matter what happens legally this guy will have to live with the fact that he killed a person for looking ...

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Thread: TN Deputy shot in an unfortunate event.

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    no matter what happens legally this guy will have to live with the fact that he killed a person for looking at his home :(..... (assuming this is what really happened, all innocent till proven guilty)
    Nope.

    He killed a man who was among two others, that all were in the process of aggravated criminal trespass on his property uninvited without request or warning at minutes before midnight.

    It is very unfortunate that a human life was taken, but this man did not set out with intent to kill a man and he did not ask to be trespassed against.
    He is a victim and was in reasonable fear of his safety.

    Yes, he could have and should have called the cops first.
    Yes, he could have first yelled out through a window 'Who goes there?!'.
    Yes, he did kill a human being.

    But the bottom line fact is that these people were well within his property and this is where the homeowner lived & slept.

    The homeowner is the victim here.
    If the person shot had not been a LEO I'd bet a box of ammo the view by most would be same as mine is now.
    Ones career choice to be a LEO does not override common sense nor the law. No matter what time of the day or night you happen to get off from work.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing


  2. #17
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    I have to agree with Janq, the homeowner is not guilty of a crime in my book. Perhaps a bit quick on the draw, but I was not there...who wouldn't protect the family at midnight?
    This officer made a foolish mistake and that is a sad situation for anyone. On a jury, with the circumstances presented, I would not convict this home owner of anything.
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    yeah but... He was not "living" in the home at the time himself... he came back to the home to (mow the lawn, meet a plumber, whatever).
    He was within his rights... but...

    He will still have to deal with his actions.. and he may feel some remorse over them.... and he may require some counseling.... maybe not....

    I would feel badly if I had been that quick on the trigger...

  4. #19
    Member Array bsms's Avatar
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    There is no sign he was in any danger. I don't know the law where he lives, but I don't think he would want me on the jury. No sign he was brandishing a gun. No forced entry. Not inside the house.

    Not Murder 1, but not acceptable behavior, either - IMHO. Again, the laws vary from state to state. The homeowner didn't protect himself - there was no threat - and he did no favor to gun rights.

    The Arizona law doesn't give him the right to shoot, if I'm reading it right:

    "B. A person may use deadly physical force under subsection A only in the defense of himself or third persons as described in sections 13-405 and 13-406."

    Arizona Revised Statutes - Title 13 Criminal Code - Section 13-407 Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises - Arizona Attorney Resources - Arizona Laws

    I'm no lawyer, and AZ law may well differ from TN, but there were way too many options open to the homeowner to justify shooting and killing someone.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    I have to agree with Janq, the homeowner is not guilty of a crime in my book
    I think you and Janq missed the point of my post... REGARDLESS of the LEGALITIES it would suck to realize the person you killed had NO ILL INTENT
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  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    yeah but... He was not "living" in the home at the time himself... he came back to the home to (mow the lawn, meet a plumber, whatever).
    The people who would know best state he lives there.

    "Neighbors said Larry White lives at the home and has experienced several break-ins. They added that White may have thought someone was attempting to burglarize his home."
    Source - Franklin County Deputy Shot, Killed - Local News - Nashville, TN - News - msnbc.com

    It does not matter that he lived there everyday or was there just seasonally (i.e. second or third house).
    This is his property and where he was in that immediate moment residing then in the process of living.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    I think you and Janq missed the point of my post... REGARDLESS of the LEGALITIES it would suck to realize the person you killed had NO ILL INTENT
    Yep, I got your point prior...And still I disagree.

    Intent is of no concern here.

    How many other storys have we seen here including of the same time frame such as the very popular here in the last 48 hrs. 'Shut up No crying' story & HD situation where the trespasser had no expressed intent to do harm.

    Intent to do harm in specific or intent to be a criminal in general is not a required qualifier toward a person being as by their actual actions a criminal (aggravated criminal trespass) and/or threat.

    I agree with others that this man will likely suffer the remainder of his life knowing that he took a life.
    So do many others toward shoots that are even more cut & dry good and justifiable than this.

    Recall the poignant story of Donna Jackson from this past winter...
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...55-post17.html

    That though does not mean that they were wrong in acting to defend them self.

    It is not right nor fair to assign any blame to a victim, toward the wounding nevermind death of those who trespassed against the victim. If an when a victim can respond and react in a manner to defend themself and they do so effectively, then we should support the victim.

    Yes, the persons plural in this specific case were not intending any harm toward the man or his property.
    But as we all as grown adults learn in life, usually as children, actions are what define us...Not our intent.

    This poor man is a victim and will likely be further victimized by those among his community, and thus never allowed to fully get through what happened.

    - Janq

    P.S. - How many times have we heard from BGs family & friends that B.G. Dead didn't intend to harm/hurt anyone. Yeah he was doing wrong, but he wasn't planning for anybody to get hurt...And then that man/woman (victim) went and just shot him dead.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    According to Guess, the homeowner was living in Hollywood, Florida but was trying to sell the Belvidere home. Authorities suspect Claiborne thought no one was home when he stepped foot on the property.


    Unfortunately an error in judgement that cost him his life.
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  9. #24
    Member Array bsms's Avatar
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    Don't know about TN, but AZ law allows you to defend your property "only in the defense of himself or third persons". I'm not a lawyer and may have it all wrong, but it seems that if I did the same actions as this homeowner, I'd have to show why a reasonable person would fear death or injury from someone outside the house while I was inside.

    Maybe some states allow you to kill someone for simple trespassing, but I wouldn't want to defend myself legally or morally for doing so. And any time something like this happens, the mushy middle understands why the anti-gun folks attack people like me.

    I have a right to defend myself & my family. I don't have a right to kill trespassers for trespassing.

  10. #25
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    Bottom line, as far as I see it, is that the cop did a stupid, stupid, thing and paid the ultimate price for it. He should have known better than to go onto someone else's property (alone or with a group) in the middle of the night, especially going into the back yard. If I heard/saw a group of strangers walking around my back yard at that time of night, I would assume they were up to no good and that my family's safety was in danger and I would act accordingly. The people with the cop are lucky they weren't shot as well.

    It's amazing that not one of the people trespassing had enough sense to realize that going into someone else's back yard in the middle of the night (uninvited and without announcing their intentions) was a stupid, dangerous idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Nope.

    He killed a man who was among two others, that all were in the process of aggravated criminal trespass on his property uninvited without request or warning at minutes before midnight.

    It is very unfortunate that a human life was taken, but this man did not set out with intent to kill a man and he did not ask to be trespassed against.
    He is a victim and was in reasonable fear of his safety.

    Yes, he could have and should have called the cops first.
    Yes, he could have first yelled out through a window 'Who goes there?!'.
    Yes, he did kill a human being.

    But the bottom line fact is that these people were well within his property and this is where the homeowner lived & slept.

    The homeowner is the victim here.
    If the person shot had not been a LEO I'd bet a box of ammo the view by most would be same as mine is now.
    Ones career choice to be a LEO does not override common sense nor the law. No matter what time of the day or night you happen to get off from work.

    - Janq
    ^^^ This.

  11. #26
    Senior Member Array dsee11789's Avatar
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    If I understand correctly the Officer was Off Duty / Not in Uniform?

    Pretty Dumb. He probably figured if anyone called the cops he'd just flash his badge and be on his way.
    Exodus 22:2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed"

  12. #27
    Member Array Augrunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsee11789 View Post
    If I understand correctly the Officer was Off Duty / Not in Uniform?

    Pretty Dumb. He probably figured if anyone called the cops he'd just flash his badge and be on his way.
    Complacency kills.
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  13. #28
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    The homeowner should be charged with murder.

    For anyone actually trying to justify the actions of the homeowner: The penalty of Death far exceeds the supposed crime of trespassing. Some people seem to think that claiming they thought their life was in danger is a free pass to fire away. If anyone is that jittery, I don't want the nervous nellie carrying while is the same zip code as me.

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array dsee11789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BW113 View Post
    The homeowner should be charged with murder.

    For anyone actually trying to justify the actions of the homeowner: The penalty of Death far exceeds the supposed crime of trespassing. Some people seem to think that claiming they thought their life was in danger is a free pass to fire away. If anyone is that jittery, I don't want the nervous nellie carrying while is the same zip code as me.
    Don't trespass.
    Exodus 22:2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed"

  15. #30
    Member Array bsms's Avatar
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    Actually, Exodus 22 reads: "2 If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, 3 but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him." - ESV

    As Matthew Henry puts it: "If a thief broke a house in the night, and was killed in the doing of it, his blood was upon his own head, and should not be required at the hand of him that shed it, v. 2. As he that does an unlawful act bears the blame of the mischief that follows to others, so likewise of that which follows to himself. A man's house is his castle, and God's law, as well as man's, sets a guard upon it; he that assaults it does so at his peril. Yet, if it was in the day-time that the thief was killed, he that killed him must be accountable for it (v. 3), unless it was in the necessary defence of his own life. Note, We ought to be tender of the lives even of bad men; the magistrate must afford us redress, and we must not avenge ourselves."

    The guy in this case did NOT break in, so there were still options left. Had he threatened the homeowner's life, THEN he'd be fair game in my book - but NOT for trespassing.

    What does Tennessee law say?

    From T.C.A. 39-11-614: "A person is not justified in using deadly force to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on real estate or unlawful interference with personal property."

    http://iweb.tntech.edu/cpardue/tca.html

    Sounds to me like this homeowner has some explaining to do, and "He was trespassing" won't cut it.

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