Scenario: hold up in a restaurant

This is a discussion on Scenario: hold up in a restaurant within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Guitarman36 I could not sit next to an armed robbery and let it happen knowing that I am armed and capable of ...

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Thread: Scenario: hold up in a restaurant

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarman36 View Post
    I could not sit next to an armed robbery and let it happen knowing that I am armed and capable of stopping the threat to the cashier. Imagine the cashier as your wife/sister/daughter/etc. Now imagine that cashier being shot while an armed person sits idly by just being a “good witness.” I couldn’t live with myself.
    Of course this is situational and if you don’t have a safe shot, then you can’t be reckless, but I would do everything that I could to stop the event just as if I was the main target.

    Nice to see someone who doesn't think: "It's all about me."

    Of course, there's no one real correct answer here. We're not in that situation, and we don't know what we'd really do until we were.
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  3. #32
    Member Array docdozer's Avatar
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    I don't think there is one answer. It depends on how it is proceeding. While I like the hero option, it might just the way to escalate a simple robbery into a real disaster.

    Even reaching "covertly" to ease your weapon out may draw attention. What do you think will happen then? You now have a bullseye on you, and a muzzle right at you. Advantage lost. A cool header robber may just control you. A nervous nellie may or may not lose it and pull the trigger. Someone with nothing to lose will shoot, and a drug crazed robber could do anything.

    Plus, they may shoot you, or you +.

    It seems that you should think, observe, and be ready. If he gets the cash and walks out the outcome is good.

    If he shoots, you need to have the advantage of surprise to gain the upper hand. I would favor moving, drawing, closing the distance all at once. You would have a plan of action already in motion while he would have to turn, figure it out, and realign. Causing him to shift his base, and plan will place him off balance will turn the tables giving you the upper hand. Only a calm expert in that situation will be able to register it, turn, aim, and kill you. Happily most diner robbers are not going to be experts.
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  4. #33
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Be ready to act (position yourself to draw if need be or draw discretely) and watch the event unfold. if you feel the cashiers life or anyone else's life is in danger make your choice...
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  5. #34
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    So, the cashier draws a gun from beneath the counter and her and the robber begin exchanging shots. Now what?

    If the mods think that this is a thread drift, they can just delete it please.

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    So, the cashier draws a gun from beneath the counter and her and the robber begin exchanging shots. Now what?
    duck and cover...lest the cashier targets you as an accomplice...
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  7. #36
    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    So, the cashier draws a gun from beneath the counter and her and the robber begin exchanging shots. Now what?

    If the mods think that this is a thread drift, they can just delete it please.
    This is what you want to avoid. When a shoot out begins other innocent people can get injured or killed. So the best result is to be a good witness and let him go with the money.

    Here is the law in Florida...

    When can I use deadly force in the defense of another person?

    If you see someone who is being attacked, you can use deadly force to defend him/her if the circumstances would justify that person's use of deadly force in his/her own defense. In other words, you "stand in the shoes" of the person being attacked. However, you must be certain what the situation is before you decide to apply such action.

    What if I see a crime being committed?

    A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman. But, as stated earlier, deadly force is justified if you are trying to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. The use of deadly force must be absolutely necessary to prevent the crime. Also, if the criminal runs away, you cannot use deadly force to stop him, because you would no longer be "preventing" a crime. If use of deadly force is not necessary, or you use deadly force after the crime has stopped, you could be convicted of manslaughter.
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  8. #37
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    Do nothing, say nothing, observe and report when the PD arrives unless the threat comes you way, shots fired then all bets are off, and I'm ready to defend myself, my loved ones and innocents involved. I won't chase the BG down the street, but inside the establishment, and I can get into a position of opportunity to end it, then it's going to end real quick.
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  9. #38
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig35seven View Post
    This is what you want to avoid. When a shoot out begins other innocent people can get injured or killed. So the best result is to be a good witness and let him go with the money.

    Here is the law in Florida...

    When can I use deadly force in the defense of another person?

    If you see someone who is being attacked, you can use deadly force to defend him/her if the circumstances would justify that person's use of deadly force in his/her own defense. In other words, you "stand in the shoes" of the person being attacked. However, you must be certain what the situation is before you decide to apply such action.

    What if I see a crime being committed?

    A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman. But, as stated earlier, deadly force is justified if you are trying to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. The use of deadly force must be absolutely necessary to prevent the crime. Also, if the criminal runs away, you cannot use deadly force to stop him, because you would no longer be "preventing" a crime. If use of deadly force is not necessary, or you use deadly force after the crime has stopped, you could be convicted of manslaughter.
    That isn't the LAW in Florida... that's a paraphrase of the LAW in florida... Reading these paraphrases of the law and accepting them as gospel can cause problems... even if (maybe especially if) they come from a source believed to be legally accurate... such as a sheriff's dep't pamphlet, course material from a state approved CCW course, etc.

    Laws are written in supposedly very precise language, by lawyers... so that they can argue about it in front of a referee, and find out who's the better storyteller. And BTW, they get PAID for it, by folks who read these paraphrases (and take them as "the last word"), and the lawyers LOVE doing it...

    Being a good witness, guarantees you are not at fault... CCW is a lot like knowing CPR... you are not REQUIRED to render aid... and good samaritan laws notwithstanding... You will not be in violation of the LAW if you don't "help out" You may be in violation of the law if you do

  10. #39
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig35seven View Post
    You're seated close to the cash register having dinner with your wife in a fairly crowded restaurant. You have your gun with you.

    A gunman walks up to the cash register, points a gun at the waitress and says.."give me the money or I'll blow your head off."

    What would you do?
    Continue eating my veal.

    As long as that gun isn't pointed at me or my tablemates, the evil doer is not attempting to herd people into the back of the restaurant, and no shots have yet been fired, I will continue with my meal. I'm not going to turn an Armed Robbery into a gunfight.

    Of course, if the waitress is shot that changes the game considerably. Those of you that argue about the waistress being a victim, having a gun pointed at her, and blah, blah, blah, she took the job and should be aware of the risk. If not, that's on her.

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  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarman36 View Post
    I could not sit next to an armed robbery and let it happen knowing that I am armed and capable of stopping the threat to the cashier. Imagine the cashier as your wife/sister/daughter/etc. Now imagine that cashier being shot while an armed person sits idly by just being a “good witness.” I couldn’t live with myself.
    Of course this is situational and if you don’t have a safe shot, then you can’t be reckless, but I would do everything that I could to stop the event just as if I was the main target.
    Please let me know what restaurant you are dining in so that I may avoid it.

    I have no wish to be "collateral damage" due to some CCW Permit holder's delusions of grandeur. While most of these scenarios end with nobody being shot, that isn't always the case. Each situation is different and needs to be played on it's merits.

    While I may state that I would just sit there and continue eating, I may not. It does depend on the situation. My general framework of mind, and desire, is to sit there and continue eating. The situation will dictate my response, but my inclination is to let the waitress fend for herself.

    In the grand scheme of things, one dead waitress will not impact society to a significant degree. Thus, I don't much care. My death, while it will affect those I know and love deeply, will not affect society either.

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  12. #41
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    Never have a back to the door...my wife knows this.
    Be a good witness...this includes watching the demeanor of those who enter, and this might give you a real 'heads up'.

    I'll always be away from the entrance and register (almost always).
    I trust no one...during a hold up, I'm going to dial 911 under the table and have my firearm readily available. Hopefully, the dirtbag gets his money and leaves peacefully...that's all I'm interested in...
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  13. #42
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    All I am saying is that there are a lot of people who only care about their own well-being. As for the poster who said that he would avoid the restaurant that a person who chooses to stop an armed robbery in a safe way, I choose not to dine with self-centered individuals, so it wont be a problem.

  14. #43
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarman36 View Post
    All I am saying is that there are a lot of people who only care about their own well-being. As for the poster who said that he would avoid the restaurant that a person who chooses to stop an armed robbery in a safe way, I choose not to dine with self-centered individuals, so it wont be a problem.
    I fail to see how you can start a gunfight is a "safe way". Gunfights by their very nature are unsafe.

    Also, my attitude comes from realizing the society that we inhabit today, and not how I wish things were. I can assure you that anytime you use your gun, you most likely will not be seen as the "hero" and given keys to the city.

    The sleepless nights, gastro-intestinal upset, sexual dysfunction and a multitude of other disorders awaits one that uses their gun. As Massad Ayoob says, "There are no winners in a gunfight, only survivors." What that means for me is that the alternative to using my gun has to be worse.

    I don't see an evil doer getting money as a worse alternative than me shooting him. If said evil doer was pointing his gun at me, then I just might. One lesson I learned a long time ago was to not stick my nose into other people's business. Hence the evil doer pointing his gun at the waitress isn't my business. While I most likely will be a good witness, the money is most likely insured and the restaurant certainly isn't going to pay my legal bills.

    The law may say you can shoot, but just because you can doesn't mean you should. I'll be eating at Black Angus next week in Los Angeles, and yes, I will be armed. If you care to join me, let me know, I will reserve a seat for you.

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  15. #44
    Member Array Guitarman36's Avatar
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    Biker,

    You would be completely correct if nobody ever got shot during an armed robbery. However, I look at the scenario like this: I know that a lot of armed robberies go south I also know that it was a tough decision I made when I decided to carry. So given the circumstances, I would say that if I had a clear shot and a shot where other people were not in the line of fire, I would stop the robbery. Not because I want to be the hero with keys to the city, but because I want to go home and I want that cashier to go home. Lets say that the robbery did go south and the cashier was shot, would you still sit there and be a good witness? I hope not. Just because society isn’t the way you would like it does not mean that you should sit back and watch other people be put into serious harm. Sitting and watching while another person is in serious risk of being killed is your own selfish decision, I would not make that and I seriously doubt that if it was the situation laid out that ANY criminal charges would be pressed on a concealed carrier who stopped an armed robbery.

  16. #45
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarman36 View Post
    Biker,

    You would be completely correct if nobody ever got shot during an armed robbery. However, I look at the scenario like this: I know that a lot of armed robberies go south I also know that it was a tough decision I made when I decided to carry. So given the circumstances, I would say that if I had a clear shot and a shot where other people were not in the line of fire, I would stop the robbery. Not because I want to be the hero with keys to the city, but because I want to go home and I want that cashier to go home. Lets say that the robbery did go south and the cashier was shot, would you still sit there and be a good witness? I hope not. Just because society isn’t the way you would like it does not mean that you should sit back and watch other people be put into serious harm. Sitting and watching while another person is in serious risk of being killed is your own selfish decision, I would not make that and I seriously doubt that if it was the situation laid out that ANY criminal charges would be pressed on a concealed carrier who stopped an armed robbery.
    Wow, I strongly encourage you to go sit down with a lawyer and see what he or she advises regarding this scenario. Pay the money for the time. It will be to your benefit. If you are the alturistic kind be prepared to be broke. Even a so called "good" shooting is going to cost me money I don't have, so why would I want to spend that money and assume that debt unless I absolutely have to?

    if I had a clear shot and a shot where other people were not in the line of fire,
    What about your backstop? Also, after the waitress is shot, where is the threat to you or others if the evil doer then turns and runs? The criminal act has already been done. The evil doer has the money, has shot the waitress, and is now turning to flee. No bullet you luanch into the evil doer will do anything to change what has already transpired.

    would you still sit there and be a good witness?
    If the threat has ceased what would be my justification to shoot? You cannot shoot an Armed Robber to effect an arrest.

    I seriously doubt that if it was the situation laid out that ANY criminal charges
    You are banking your freedom, life, health, fortunes past and present as well as future, and welfare on that. Good luck with that, I do wish you well. Like I said, I'll contue eating my veal. I strongly encourage you to go get some realistic training that also addresses the very real risk and ramifications of what you think you will do. Having been in a few situations I have a pretty good indicator of what I will do, but that certainly is no guarantee.

    Situations are dynamic and evolving. Be prepared for changing conditions. That Armed Robber at the Cash Register? While you were dealing with him did you happen to notice the couple dining two tables over? That's his back-up.

    I doubt that I will convince you to see the folly of your ways, but I will encourage you to spend an hour with a lawyer. Print this scenario, and the responses out and ask what the lawyer thinks, from a legal standpoint, what you should do. Believe it or not, the lawyer will have your best interest at heart, as they have taken an obligation to do so by accepting money from you for a service.

    Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a lawyer, nor usually a fan of them. What I am is just a guy that has seen very little in this world, but the little I've seen has made me realize that it ain't all roses.

    Biker

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