Scenario: hold up in a restaurant - Page 4

Scenario: hold up in a restaurant

This is a discussion on Scenario: hold up in a restaurant within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Going back to the original question, we can insert some reality by saying that in a big percentage of such situations, you will not know ...

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Thread: Scenario: hold up in a restaurant

  1. #46
    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
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    Going back to the original question, we can insert some reality by saying that in a big percentage of such situations, you will not know there is a robbery in these circumstances. The robber makes his demand quietly and only the cashier sees the gun. Also, despite what some people believe, the vast majority of these types of robberies do not result in the robber firing his gun. So, if you are inclined to think that you would intervene, you need to think very carefully about whether you are making people safer, or putting them at greater risk of injury or death.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.


  2. #47
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    Sit there and be a good witness. If I could I would get up discreetly and leave the restaurant.

  3. #48
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Hence the evil doer pointing his gun at the waitress isn't my business.
    Yes and no. Yes, to the extent that the restaurant is probably insured, and provided that the robbery goes smoothly, nobody is getting hurt. Be a good witness and be prepared to tell the police what you saw. Yes also, because if you draw your CCW and open fire on the perp, many people may be injured or killed.

    Unless you're really lucky or get a perfect headshot, the gunman may wheel around and open up with a high-capacity auto, you might start shooting back and in all the excitement hit the waitress or someone else. Turning a quiet robbery into a running gun battle may be bad strategy and tactics.

    Yet, no, it's still your business in several ways. If you do nothing, you are acquiescing to the proposition that the place where you live is one where armed goons can loot and steal as they please. It's just a small jump from here to a scenario where the perp is pistol-whipping the waitress, or sexually assaulting her. Do you shrug and go back to your pasta?

    If any of us are so unlucky as to wind up in this kind of situation, we'll have a lot of variables and possibilities to consider. Maybe "everybody hand over your wallets!" still wouldn't be cause to shoot, but "everybody go into the back room now!" would be.

    From a realistic standpoint, a lone gunman probably would wait until the restaurant was empty or nearly so. Businesses robbed during normal hours are usually robbed by gangs.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  4. #49
    Member Array Guitarman36's Avatar
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    Your wisdom is almost as great as you think it is Biker....

  5. #50
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post

    If any of us are so unlucky as to wind up in this kind of situation, we'll have a lot of variables and possibilities to consider. Maybe "everybody hand over your wallets!" still wouldn't be cause to shoot, but "everybody go into the back room now!" would be.
    I definitely would not go into the back room now and would shoot if any way possible.

  6. #51
    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DefConGun View Post
    I definitely would not go into the back room now and would shoot if any way possible.
    I've heard people say they'll never allow themselves to be moved to "the back room." seems silly to me. I'll be the 1st one back there! I'll have a nice little surprise waiting.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

  7. #52
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bm7b5 View Post
    I've heard people say they'll never allow themselves to be moved to "the back room." seems silly to me. I'll be the 1st one back there! I'll have a nice little surprise waiting.
    I think the idea behind this is that they aren't going to take you back there to hold your hand and when I read "go into the back room", I'm reading - the situation has now escalated and it's progressively going into a bad direction (not that any of it was good other than that no one has been hurt yet). I can see how being the first one in there and having a surprise might work but I can also see how that there could be other people in there that could get hurt if you try anything. A lot of this is how it plays out and like someone mentioned earlier - the situation is in constant motion, etc. it's hard to speak in absolutes although I have to do this in my mind to imagine what I would do, etc. It's nice to say you would be the first one in there but in reality at this moment, the BGs are the ones calling the shots and you would go in there when they tell you to go in there and if they are sending you into a crowded meat locker, you might not have room to swing around with gun in hand - assuming this is what you had in mind.

  8. #53
    Member Array centermass's Avatar
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    The last time anything like that happened around here, it was a gas station and everyone there was killed execution style in the freezer. It's hard to take everything into consideration. Will this be a case where the robber shoots the waitress or casher and then tries to eliminate all witnesses? Or will he simply take the money and leave? My actions would depend on his body language, being able to see the gun, where the gun is pointed, and weather or not I have cover in case of a multiple shot situation. It would also depend on if my children are present. If it's just me and my wife I would be more inclined to intervene. If my children are present, I'm getting my gun ready and waiting. I wouldn't draw unless my family was in direct danger. It would be too hard to ensure my families safety. If it was just me and my wife I would take into account where the gun is pointed. If it's pointed directly at her head (the casher) I would be less likely to do anything. Because if I did, my actions may startle the robber into an accidental discharge. If he had it at low ready pointed at her body area, I would make my firearm ready and wait. If he shoots, I shoot. If he don't, I don't. Him shooting first would make it clear that she would be legally justified in shooting him, therefore legally justifying my use of deadly force. And in the case of him shooting her in the body she would have more chance of survival with immediate medical care. I would NOT shoot if he had the gun pointed at her head, because it could result in the cashers death as well due to accidental discharge. If he did shoot her in the head I would shoot him. I would do so to eliminate the threat to try to save her life. And because it would be justified in the defence of another. It would be a really hard choice to get involved without shots fired. But like I said, Body language would be a big determining factor.


    On a side note, around here the robber pointing a gun would be legal justification for self defence as well as defence of others. If she would be justified in shooting him to defend herself. I would be justified in shooting him to defend her.


    If I did shoot first, it would be a double tap to the head then to the body. At an upward angle if at all possible.
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  9. #54
    Member Array centermass's Avatar
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    When I say body positioning and weather or not I can see the gun. I'm taking into account weather or not he's trying not to draw attention or if he is waving the gun around. If he's waving the gun around, I would feel the the is not concerned with having to shoot someone and is committed to getting his way at all costs. If he's trying not to draw attention. I would probably feel like he isn't wanting to draw attention to himself and would be less likely to shoot if he gets the money. That could all change if he encounters resistance. If the casher refuses, he's either going to give up and leave or he'll pull the gun and commit to the robbery. If he does get the money he's more likely to just leave if he hasn't drawn attention.
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  10. #55
    New Member Array Tnedator's Avatar
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    In Arkansas, the statute on use of deadly force to protect a third person is:

    5-2-607.Use of deadly physical force in defense of a person.

    (a)A person is justified in using deadly physical force upon another person if the person reasonably believes that the other person is:

    (1)Committing or about to commit a felony involving force or violence;

    (2)Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force; or

    (3)(A)Imminently endangering the person's life or imminently about to victimize the person as described in § 9-15-103 from the continuation of a pattern of domestic abuse.

    (B)As used in this section, “domestic abuse” means the same as defined in § 9-15-103.
    The use of "physical force" to stop a felony is:

    5-2-621.Attempting to protect persons during commission of a felony.

    No person is civilly liable for an action or omission intended to protect himself or herself or another from a personal injury during the commission of a felony unless the action or omission constitutes a felony.
    Which leaves it very questionable as to whether use of deadly force was warranted. Did you actually believe the waitress was likely to be shot?

    What does a felony with 'force' mean? Does simply having a gun indicate 'force'?

    The confusion about legality of using deadly force aside, in that situation, I would not attempt to get involved unless I really believed she was about to get shot and I had to get involved to save her life. Letting him steal the cash and leave is a FAR better option than pulling my gun.

  11. #56
    Member Array billfromtx's Avatar
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    If my gut told me this idot was going to shoot someone and not just take the money and run...I'd take the shot firstchance I got.
    It would depend on alot of things. But i do trust my gut.
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    Neither of which is Marine Corps policy.

    "It's all about shot placement."- David (Slayer of Goliath)

  12. #57
    Member Array carguy2244's Avatar
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    Restaurant robbery

    Did I miss it? Has anyone mentioned the BG may not be acting alone?How'd you like to draw, get the BG in the head, then catch 2 in chest from his buddy at the door? The first question isn't shoot/don't shoot,
    it's that old familiar song, "situational awareness."
    Why didn't I see this unfolding? Should I be carrying a weapon, let alone consider firing it, if I don't even know my surroundings?
    How about the off duty cop, or other good citizen ccw, seated 20 feet away that doesn't know the place is being robbed. You draw, then you get shot due to mis-identification.
    When you draw, you risk return fire. Your wife will certainly be in the line of fire. It keeps getting worse.
    I'm looking at his eyes, body language, trigger finger. I'm looking for signs he's going to fire. I'm scanning the restaurant for his partner(s), for other diners who may get involved. Is their cover/concealment for me/my wife? Am I able to get out of my seat? Try effectively engaging a target from a restaurant booth. What's the background if I miss or over penetrate?
    All that needs to process in seconds. Then, the situation will dictate.

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