Old scenario, still think about it - Page 2

Old scenario, still think about it

This is a discussion on Old scenario, still think about it within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by PRSOrator Here is a scenario that happened to me three years ago, at the time I did not carry, was completely unarmed. ...

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Thread: Old scenario, still think about it

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PRSOrator View Post
    Here is a scenario that happened to me three years ago, at the time I did not carry, was completely unarmed.

    I'll basically just tell you the story, and then let everyone weigh in on what I should of could of would of done if I had my firearm or knife on me.

    I was at a rock concert in a small venue, the place was crowded, alcohol was not being served and the crowd wasn't very rowdy except for the occasional testosterone filled meat head jumping up and down. I didn't care for the music but a friend had asked me to accompany them for the long drive. They were filling in for one of the bands playing that night, so I said sure, free show instead of an evening alone? Why not.

    Halfway through the show I was grabbed from behind in a half nelson choke hold and lifted from my feet. I have hand to hand training and was able to put my feet back on the ground, judging by the size of the arms against my throat and the chest I felt behind me this guy was taller and larger than me (I am 5'10 170 lbs.). After my feet touch the ground I was able to loosen the grip on the choke but before I could muscle out of it (which is very difficult if you are taken by surprise like this) I was punched in the face three times and subsequently knocked out (probably due to the loss of air from the choking). I woke up surrounded by people outside of the venue and the security, I was really confused. My eyelid was torn in half down the center and split at the top, dangling by a corner, and I was thrown into a door apparently after being knocked out splitting by head open. The attack left me with 4 staples in my skull and 7 stitches in my eyelid.

    Here's the kicker, the attacker never identified himself, I remember everything up the concussion in detail. All he said was "Stop acting tough". The person choking me was actually a security guard and employee of the venue. I was wearing a generic white t-shirt and khaki shorts, and he had mistaken me for some knucklehead who was making trouble earlier. The person who punched me was his buddy who was not an employee of the venue, but saw that once I was defending myself he felt his friend "needed his help".

    I could have easily grabbed and planted my knife in his side or in his arm and retained my weapon. I walked away from the assault alive and with no life long injuries, the guy that punched me got assault and battery and the security guard got nothing because he testified against him. My testimony was moot point because I suffered a concussion from the hits, which means brain damage which tarnished the "merit" of my statement. I never sued or got any compensation from the attack.

    If you were put in the exact same situation but were armed with what I carry now (SW 640 .357 and a Benchmade Folding knife), would you have responded differently?

    Please don't answer with silly things like "Don't go to rock concerts", thanks!
    And it's also unfortunate you had to go through that situation. Don't let it get to you and just simply learn from it.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    The point? Sometimes there are no good answers. If you are in a crowded place and a big guy attacks you sight unseen, you may be screwed. Shooting in a crowded arena isn't a good answer. Stabbing the arm might help, but if the other attacker saw that, he might have killed you "in defense".
    This^

    All you can hope to do in a situation like this is hope your SD training kicks in (like you did, to escape the choke). I can sit here and be an arm chair QB and say I would not shoot in a crowded place, but who knows what I'd do when I perceived my life to be in danger.

    #1 would be to try and escape the grip and strike the attacker preferably somewhere below the belt...

    #2 would be to get behind the attacker (this would also allow me to see if he has any buddies)

    You should have sued. Just saying.
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  3. #18
    Senior Member Array jhh3rd's Avatar
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    Basically when you are overwhelmed there is not much you can do. As far as the security guard, revenge is a dish best served cold.

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    i was choked from behind almost to the point of blackout when i was younger...i took him out at the shins with my heels when he lifted me off the ground and would do the same if i were on the ground as i try to work the choke off...he ended up in a cast and severely bruised around the face after i had a session with him on the ground...

    your situation is kind of unique in that there were 2 guys involved and it sounds like it went rather quickly...dropping him at the legs may have taken you out of the immediate sights of the fist man...a choke is a lousy position to be in and it is quite dibilitating and disorienting...

    i dont see a draw in this situation...you are in very close proximity to 2 (although you probably didnt know there were 2 until you were hit) aggressors and in a choke hold you dont have much control over your draw or good retention...in a crowded venue you are taking a big risk of multiple injuries with a shot you cant place with confidence along with a risk of your gun being taken away from you and either used against you or becoming a "we attacked him because he drew a gun" scenenario...

    i would have consulted a lawyer immediately....brain injuries can leave permanent scarring and lasting affects..and not unlike your respnsibility of knowing your target and whats behind it the security at any venue is responsible for identifying their target before any action should be taken...and violent action like was taken...involving someone not on the security team was irresponsible and less than legal...you should have been approached and escorted out if they thought you were someone who had done something wrong...not visciously attacked...that is assault and battery...

    or is there more we dont know?...a valid question....

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    A shin-scrape would probably have got you at least let down to the ground, if not released. Best bet at that point for me would have been to grab the choking arm, pull down hard and rotate the shoulder on that side down hard. With practice it's not hard to toss even a fairly large person over your shoulder, assuming they aren't well-trained.
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  6. #21
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    The secret is to react before the hold sinks in.
    Yes. This is what is meant by the term "window." As any armed or unarmed attack begins, you have a wide window of opportunity with many options.

    1. You are in a crowded venue, such as at a concert
    2. You begin to sense someone close up behind you in your personal space
    3. You feel entry into your zone of defense
    4. A hand grabs your arm and starts to twist
    5. An arm loops around your neck
    6. Both holds begin to tighten

    As we proceed from 2 through 6, that window is closing fast and options are shutting down. In 2 through 3, small movements of position and weight can be effective. Here's a bagua demo showing how fluid responses work well inside the window.

    As the window gets smaller, the options decrease and the responses need to be larger and stronger, approaching and reaching 100-percent full force.

    Watch the video again. Notice that in this kind of situation, combatives are needed. There is no time to gain purchase on a weapon, such as gun, knife or flashlight. If it isn't in hand and ready to use, it isn't going to be a factor at all. The gun-centric, weapon-centric mindset will solve problems, but only those in a specific range. Other situations, like those in the OP's scenario, require unarmed technique to buy time and distance to bring a weapon into play.
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  7. #22
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    I think you probably were just surprised and overwhelmed and there isn't much you could have done differently. You were doomed once the second guy smashed your face without any howdy-do.

    As for the security guard, it might not yet be too late to sue him and the owner of the establishment--- assuming of course that you really did nothing to provoke any of it.

    There are usually strict time limits for these types of suits and you may have passed a deadline, but sometimes these limits can be overcome.

    Go see a personal injury attorney or two or three and get your 30 minute free consult; or pay fifty bucks for a 30 minute initial consult. There is a clear record of what happened here, a conviction, and you owe it to yourself to make sure you get the compensation you deserve, assuming too that the establishment's insurance hasn't already paid you something for a settlement.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Yes. This is what is meant by the term "window." As any armed or unarmed attack begins, you have a wide window of opportunity with many options.

    1. You are in a crowded venue, such as at a concert
    2. You begin to sense someone close up behind you in your personal space
    3. You feel entry into your zone of defense
    4. A hand grabs your arm and starts to twist
    5. An arm loops around your neck
    6. Both holds begin to tighten

    As we proceed from 2 through 6, that window is closing fast and options are shutting down. In 2 through 3, small movements of position and weight can be effective. Here's a bagua demo showing how fluid responses work well inside the window.

    As the window gets smaller, the options decrease and the responses need to be larger and stronger, approaching and reaching 100-percent full force.

    Watch the video again. Notice that in this kind of situation, combatives are needed. There is no time to gain purchase on a weapon, such as gun, knife or flashlight. If it isn't in hand and ready to use, it isn't going to be a factor at all. The gun-centric, weapon-centric mindset will solve problems, but only those in a specific range. Other situations, like those in the OP's scenario, require unarmed technique to buy time and distance to bring a weapon into play.

    Issue is in a place like a concert, you don't get the benefit of 1-3
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  9. #24
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    Issue is in a place like a concert, you don't get the benefit of 1-3
    unless youre psychic....

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    unless youre psychic....
    Well we can't all be me now can we?
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  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Yes. This is what is meant by the term "window." As any armed or unarmed attack begins, you have a wide window of opportunity with many options.

    1. You are in a crowded venue, such as at a concert
    2. You begin to sense someone close up behind you in your personal space
    3. You feel entry into your zone of defense
    4. A hand grabs your arm and starts to twist
    5. An arm loops around your neck
    6. Both holds begin to tighten

    As we proceed from 2 through 6, that window is closing fast and options are shutting down. In 2 through 3, small movements of position and weight can be effective. Here's a bagua demo showing how fluid responses work well inside the window.

    As the window gets smaller, the options decrease and the responses need to be larger and stronger, approaching and reaching 100-percent full force.

    Watch the video again. Notice that in this kind of situation, combatives are needed. There is no time to gain purchase on a weapon, such as gun, knife or flashlight. If it isn't in hand and ready to use, it isn't going to be a factor at all. The gun-centric, weapon-centric mindset will solve problems, but only those in a specific range. Other situations, like those in the OP's scenario, require unarmed technique to buy time and distance to bring a weapon into play.
    From the OP it appears that you would be starting from somewhere between 5 and 6.

    The preponderance of discussions and scenarios on SD revolve around lethal force encounters and are understandably gun/weapon-centric.

    While there are times where unarmed techniques are called for prior to introduction of a weapon, circumstances rather than range are the determining factor. As an example, I had four people holding me, while a fifth was doing fist surgery on my face. I was still able to draw my weapon and was in the process of doing so when assistance arrived.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post

    The point? Sometimes there are no good answers. If you are in a crowded place and a big guy attacks you sight unseen, you may be screwed. Shooting in a crowded arena isn't a good answer. Stabbing the arm might help, but if the other attacker saw that, he might have killed you "in defense".

    "Don't go to rock concerts" isn't entirely silly. You 'takes your chances' and sometimes you 'pays your dues'.
    This is the truth. Some attacks you just can't se coming, especially if you're in a crowded place. Sometimes life hits you with a poo sandwitch.

    The answer to your scenario is that sometimes you have to take your lumps. I wrestled for 13 years, through high school and into college. If someone like me gets a choke hold on you there isn't much you can do but go to sleep. Sometimes bad things happen to people and there really is no other answer.

    Introducing a lethal weapon into this scenario would probably land you in prison. If you shoot a security guard you're probably in serious trouble.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by paaiyan View Post
    A shin-scrape would probably have got you at least let down to the ground, if not released. Best bet at that point for me would have been to grab the choking arm, pull down hard and rotate the shoulder on that side down hard. With practice it's not hard to toss even a fairly large person over your shoulder, assuming they aren't well-trained.


    A shin scrape.... A flip....
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post


    A shin scrape.... A flip....

    why the eye roll? its fairly easy to do during a sparring session ...when adrenaline is cooking though who knows.

    Also, There are ways to grab someone from behind that are simple to escape from and there are ways to grab from behind that are rather difficult.

    The answer to your scenario is that sometimes you have to take your lumps. I wrestled for 13 years, through high school and into college. If someone like me gets a choke hold on you there isn't much you can do but go to sleep. Sometimes bad things happen to people and there really is no other answer.
    I've been in my share of choke holds, cooler heads and fast thinking can prevail.
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  15. #30
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    btw, I don't wrestle...I fight
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