Old scenario, still think about it - Page 3

Old scenario, still think about it

This is a discussion on Old scenario, still think about it within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by atctimmy A shin scrape.... A flip.... Don't roll your eyes at me. He specified that he was unarmed. You got better ideas? ...

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Thread: Old scenario, still think about it

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post


    A shin scrape.... A flip....
    Don't roll your eyes at me. He specified that he was unarmed. You got better ideas? Let's hear them.

    When I say I'm going to shin-scrape someone, it's going to hurt. A lot. I'm a soccer player. I've got a lot of leg strength and if I shin scrape someone I mean I'm taking chunks of flesh off their shin. You think that wouldn't make you think twice about keeping hold of me?

    If I can manage to flip someone, one of two things is going to happen. They let go and I curb-stomp them, or they keep a hold of me. If they keep hold, they're going to end up between me and the ground which is going to make any elbow strikes or headbutts by me much more effective since there's no room for them to cringe backward.
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  2. #32
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    Sorry, but I think there are a few participants here who are not able to put themselves using imagination into the situation OP was in. He got a surprise choke hold put on him AND he got an almost instantaneous (near simultaneous) couple of savage punches to his face.

    I think this was one of those situations where there was no response possible, and
    agree that this started with # 5 in that list above, leaving very few options.

    Folks seem to be overlooking the 2 on one aspect.

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    If I can manage to flip someone, one of two things is going to happen. They let go and I curb-stomp them, or they keep a hold of me. If they keep hold, they're going to end up between me and the ground which is going to make any elbow strikes or headbutts by me much more effective since there's no room for them to cringe backward.
    In sparring when I can't get a cleap flip from a rear hold I usually end up going over WITH them and landing on top of them, that doesn't feel too good for them either, but then I am on the ground too :(
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by paaiyan View Post
    Don't roll your eyes at me. He specified that he was unarmed. You got better ideas? Let's hear them.

    When I say I'm going to shin-scrape someone, it's going to hurt. A lot. I'm a soccer player. I've got a lot of leg strength and if I shin scrape someone I mean I'm taking chunks of flesh off their shin. You think that wouldn't make you think twice about keeping hold of me?

    If I can manage to flip someone, one of two things is going to happen. They let go and I curb-stomp them, or they keep a hold of me. If they keep hold, they're going to end up between me and the ground which is going to make any elbow strikes or headbutts by me much more effective since there's no room for them to cringe backward.
    Ok here is the deal. If, like in the OP, I get a free shot at you from behind to thow a choke in you aren't going to get any chance to defend. I'm going to grab you around your neck AND wrench you off of your feet at the same time. As we fall to the ground you will land face first with me on your back. In the instant we land I'll be throwing legs in on you and squeezing and arching my back all at the same time. There is a reason why trained MMA experts get put to sleep by rear naked chokes....it's because they work.

    The point in my post was not to insult you (and the roll eyes was childish of me, sorry), rather it was to illustrate that once you have gone so far into deep doo-doo there is no easy way out. If I grab you from behind a shin scrape attempt isn't going to stop me, in fact it isn't really feasable. Nothing short of you deploying a lethal weapon is going to keep you awake.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    btw, I don't wrestle...I fight
    There is a reason why so many wrestlers hold MMA titles. Grapling is like speaking another language. You either know it and understand or you are lost (getting tossed about like the wind).
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post

    i would have consulted a lawyer immediately....brain injuries can leave permanent scarring and lasting affects..and not unlike your respnsibility of knowing your target and whats behind it the security at any venue is responsible for identifying their target before any action should be taken...and violent action like was taken...involving someone not on the security team was irresponsible and less than legal...you should have been approached and escorted out if they thought you were someone who had done something wrong...not visciously attacked...that is assault and battery...

    or is there more we dont know?...a valid question....

    In reality I had no case, I had no witnesses to the attack except for the responding officer, the EMTs, and the doctor that attended to my injuries. All after the fact. But in terms of the attack, the venue could say I was running around the venue with a knife and the only statement to argue otherwise would be mine. (This is obviously preposterous but, there was nothing stopping the venue from saying they were defending themselves). Approaching it from an excessive force stand point may have worked but, I was young (19) and really just wanted to put the attack behind me, I was pissed as it was when I was subpoenaed to testify against the attacker, because I really just wanted to put it in the past.

    And you're right, it is assault and battery, and thats precisely what the the second attacker got tried and convicted for by the state.

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    In sparring when I can't get a cleap flip from a rear hold I usually end up going over WITH them and landing on top of them, that doesn't feel too good for them either, but then I am on the ground too :(
    Exactly my point. If I end up on top of them any strikes I make are more effective since there's no room for them to recoil. What's going to hurt more, being elbowed while standing up where you can recoil a bit to reduce the effect, or being elbowed with a hard surface at your back so you have no way to reduce the impact?

    And ATC, chances are I'm not fighting a trained MMA expert. And OP told us his feet hit the ground. The way he described it he didn't get hit till the guy's buddy realized he was fighting back. So he did have a few seconds to react and he was on the ground at some point. You're telling me what you would do to me, not what the guy did to him.

    If we're talking about what I would do were I in this situation in my current state, my first reaction would be to grab his choking arm with my right hand and attempt to make space, and grab the 4" folder out of my left pocket. I've got no problem deploying a deadly weapon to fend off this guy who has - unannounced - snuck up and violently assaulted me with unknown intentions.
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  7. #37
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    I get a free shot at you from behind to thow a choke in you aren't going to get any chance to defend. I'm going to grab you around your neck AND wrench you off of your feet at the same time. As we fall to the ground you will land face first with me on your back.
    Fortunately this is not what happened here, and the OP had enough time to react to prevent at least that scenario

    There is a reason why so many wrestlers hold MMA titles. Grapling is like speaking another language. You either know it and understand or you are lost (getting tossed about like the wind).
    My point is that wrestling alone and being good at it does not win a fight either, nor does training for MMA, I train without illegal moves or other restrictions, I train to survive, yes I grapple, I also fight close quarters and at a distance, I just don't call it grappling as a real fight moves between the 3 contexts at any time, I call it fighting.

    In the scenario above as soon as I felt/saw your arms coming around I will have already reacted usually first tucking my chin, moving, dropping my center and turning into you (I mentioned on this forum how often people in my class try and sneak up on me and choke me, 95% of the time they are unsuccessful with minimal effort on my part, i've been caught off guard a couple times however and had to resort to escaping the choke). but thats not the scenario here, he's already in the hold, and he's not thrown to the ground either..whats next?
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  8. #38
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PRSOrator View Post
    In reality I had no case, I had no witnesses to the attack except for the responding officer, the EMTs, and the doctor that attended to my injuries. All after the fact. But in terms of the attack, the venue could say I was running around the venue with a knife and the only statement to argue otherwise would be mine. (This is obviously preposterous but, there was nothing stopping the venue from saying they were defending themselves). Approaching it from an excessive force stand point may have worked but, I was young (19) and really just wanted to put the attack behind me, I was pissed as it was when I was subpoenaed to testify against the attacker, because I really just wanted to put it in the past.

    And you're right, it is assault and battery, and thats precisely what the the second attacker got tried and convicted for by the state.

    You lost simply before you entered the courtroom simply because you didn't try...unfortunately..lots of what ifs in that paragraph...
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  9. #39
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    btw, if you want to pick me up and then knock me onto my face there are few ways to this without me...

    A.) having a chance to regain footing
    B.) flipping you
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    You lost simply before you entered the courtroom simply because you didn't try...unfortunately..lots of what ifs in that paragraph...
    Yup, at the time I had no interest in suing, the opportunity has passed and I don't think I'd feel right trying at this point. You need to prove there was lasting damage, and I'm not about to sit there and act like I received emotional trauma from the incident. The actual attack is in the past, what my OP is for is I'm interested in preventing it from ever happening again, not whether I should sue or not.

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    I know what you mean, even though I am still young I still look back and rethink my past actions...what I should have done..makes me sad sometimes :p
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    Well we can't all be me now can we?
    i knew you would say that....

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    i knew you would say that....
    Am I so transparent...

    or are you physic too?!
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  14. #44
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PRSOrator View Post
    In reality I had no case, I had no witnesses to the attack except for the responding officer, the EMTs, and the doctor that attended to my injuries. All after the fact. But in terms of the attack, the venue could say I was running around the venue with a knife and the only statement to argue otherwise would be mine. (This is obviously preposterous but, there was nothing stopping the venue from saying they were defending themselves). Approaching it from an excessive force stand point may have worked but, I was young (19) and really just wanted to put the attack behind me, I was pissed as it was when I was subpoenaed to testify against the attacker, because I really just wanted to put it in the past.

    And you're right, it is assault and battery, and thats precisely what the the second attacker got tried and convicted for by the state.
    you state an attacker got tried and convicted by the state...yet you had no case...the guy who choked you rolled on the guy who hit you so his roll was clear and he worked for the venue...yet you had no case...

    were you told this by a lawyer or are you assuming you had no case?...the venue could harldly say they were defending themselves if nobody had approached you previously and you were attacked from behind by a security person...

  15. #45
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    Well I happen to love rock shows and I've been concerned about this in the past. These days I find my self with my back to the sound pit so I have something behind me.

    My thought is definitely don't pull a gun in that situation - if it isn't security then security will hopefully be on their way. I probably wouldn't pull my knife even tho I bring it to shows. That would definitely get you worked over.

    You got a raw deal, probably not much you could have done aside from being more aware and better positioned but even then with multiple attackers that's tough.

    I got our of a half-nelson once from a 1/2 joking bigger-than-me friend by toe stomping and going for his eyes. I think if you can grab the groin that would probably be the surest way out. Wasn't about to go for my buddies stuff.

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