Old scenario, still think about it

This is a discussion on Old scenario, still think about it within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Here is a scenario that happened to me three years ago, at the time I did not carry, was completely unarmed. I'll basically just tell ...

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Thread: Old scenario, still think about it

  1. #1
    Member Array PRSOrator's Avatar
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    Old scenario, still think about it

    Here is a scenario that happened to me three years ago, at the time I did not carry, was completely unarmed.

    I'll basically just tell you the story, and then let everyone weigh in on what I should of could of would of done if I had my firearm or knife on me.

    I was at a rock concert in a small venue, the place was crowded, alcohol was not being served and the crowd wasn't very rowdy except for the occasional testosterone filled meat head jumping up and down. I didn't care for the music but a friend had asked me to accompany them for the long drive. They were filling in for one of the bands playing that night, so I said sure, free show instead of an evening alone? Why not.

    Halfway through the show I was grabbed from behind in a half nelson choke hold and lifted from my feet. I have hand to hand training and was able to put my feet back on the ground, judging by the size of the arms against my throat and the chest I felt behind me this guy was taller and larger than me (I am 5'10 170 lbs.). After my feet touch the ground I was able to loosen the grip on the choke but before I could muscle out of it (which is very difficult if you are taken by surprise like this) I was punched in the face three times and subsequently knocked out (probably due to the loss of air from the choking). I woke up surrounded by people outside of the venue and the security, I was really confused. My eyelid was torn in half down the center and split at the top, dangling by a corner, and I was thrown into a door apparently after being knocked out splitting by head open. The attack left me with 4 staples in my skull and 7 stitches in my eyelid.

    Here's the kicker, the attacker never identified himself, I remember everything up the concussion in detail. All he said was "Stop acting tough". The person choking me was actually a security guard and employee of the venue. I was wearing a generic white t-shirt and khaki shorts, and he had mistaken me for some knucklehead who was making trouble earlier. The person who punched me was his buddy who was not an employee of the venue, but saw that once I was defending myself he felt his friend "needed his help".

    I could have easily grabbed and planted my knife in his side or in his arm and retained my weapon. I walked away from the assault alive and with no life long injuries, the guy that punched me got assault and battery and the security guard got nothing because he testified against him. My testimony was moot point because I suffered a concussion from the hits, which means brain damage which tarnished the "merit" of my statement. I never sued or got any compensation from the attack.

    If you were put in the exact same situation but were armed with what I carry now (SW 640 .357 and a Benchmade Folding knife), would you have responded differently?

    Please don't answer with silly things like "Don't go to rock concerts", thanks!

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  3. #2
    Member Array bsms's Avatar
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    About 20 years ago, I knew a guy who was chatting with a friend in a crowded English pub. While they were talking, a large English guy passing by their table turned and smashed a heavy mug into the American's face. Broke his cheekbone, jaw, had a concussion, spent weeks in the hospital...turned out the English guy had recently lost his girlfriend to an American. When he passed the table and heard the American accent, he decided to teach the Americans a lesson. Yes, he went to jail...and the American was still getting surgery done a year later.

    The point? Sometimes there are no good answers. If you are in a crowded place and a big guy attacks you sight unseen, you may be screwed. Shooting in a crowded arena isn't a good answer. Stabbing the arm might help, but if the other attacker saw that, he might have killed you "in defense".

    "Don't go to rock concerts" isn't entirely silly. You 'takes your chances' and sometimes you 'pays your dues'.

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    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    You should have sued. Just saying.

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    Senior Member Array Tala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    You should have sued. Just saying.
    Ditto.

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    Tough call, with the speed and violence of the attack it sounds like you had no time to employ any type of weapon.
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."

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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    You should have sued. Just saying.
    Yeah, too late now.

    And the "don't go to rock concerts" thing is because this situation can happen in any public event. A wedding, a ceremony, a crowded mall, hence why I didn't want the arena to be the focus.

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    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    Someone puts a choke-hold on me while I'm carrying will need paramedics or a coroner ASAP. Gun, knife, car keys, or whatever. I have this problem - I'm alergic to being killed.
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

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    Member Array TangoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post
    "Don't go to rock concerts" isn't entirely silly. You 'takes your chances' and sometimes you 'pays your dues'.
    I think that is silly. We cant hide in our homes and play it safe. What is the point of fighting for our rights, including 2A, if we never go out and live. I am not sharp shooting BSMS. He is right you have to live with your actions. If you go out into the world be prepared to defend yourself. Also know there are situations where there is no defence. We can not be afraid of that fact. We can only go out and live. I suggest everyone live like today is your last, because it could be.

    I am glad you lived to talk about it. It is likely you might not have been able to legally carry at the concert anyway.
    "When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the
    scabbard." -General Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson

  10. #9
    Distinguished Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Only real defense for this is to have your back to some structure. If there's an attack, it has to come from a direction you can see.

    Otherwise, you'd have to train in a martial art that focuses on fast reactions to keep the "window" wide. My school regularly practices grabs from all directions, sucker punches, etc. Years of this and you start to get kinesthetic grooving, muscle memory, so as that arm bar and choke start to slip on, you're turning and your elbow is up and driving back as you turn to face, or you sweep from under his arm and throw him down - something like that.

    Pulling a knife or gun in a crowded concert-type venue could get you killed.

    Anybody else have technique for the surprise grab from behind? There's also reverse head-butt, dropping and elbow to groin, and the classic escape from the arm bar by rotating the shoulder joint and reversing the hold. (Some of you guys know that one.)
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

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    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Only real defense for this is to have your back to some structure. If there's an attack, it has to come from a direction you can see.
    Best advice....can't always happen though. Just keeping yourself in the best position to observe is about all you can do, especially in that kind of venue.



    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Pulling a knife or gun in a crowded concert-type venue could get you killed.
    Very possiable, but at a concert and most likely unarmed, a small pocket knife (or my EDC knife) to his forearm and thigh would get him off me. That'd be my first instinct......my knife &/or a thumb to an eyeball.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    First, I would not have been there. I don't like big crowds, been in too many riots.

    Beyond that I'm with Obxned. The choke is lethal force or close enough to it. I would have drawn and shot him in the gut at a downward angle to minimize collateral damage. From there circumstances would dictate. The presence of others while a concern, does not negate my right to defend my life.

    ETA: I have mentioned befor that any actions I might take are in no way recommendations for others, merely what I would do.

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    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Only real defense for this is to have your back to some structure. If there's an attack, it has to come from a direction you can see.

    Otherwise, you'd have to train in a martial art that focuses on fast reactions to keep the "window" wide. My school regularly practices grabs from all directions, sucker punches, etc. Years of this and you start to get kinesthetic grooving, muscle memory, so as that arm bar and choke start to slip on, you're turning and your elbow is up and driving back as you turn to face, or you sweep from under his arm and throw him down - something like that.

    Pulling a knife or gun in a crowded concert-type venue could get you killed.

    Anybody else have technique for the surprise grab from behind? There's also reverse head-butt, dropping and elbow to groin, and the classic escape from the arm bar by rotating the shoulder joint and reversing the hold. (Some of you guys know that one.)
    Those I would most commnly use, including grabbing, twisting and ripping his Johnsons as well as shin rakes/foot stomps. The secret is to react before the hold sinks in. But if worse comes to worse, I also have my knife and flashlight that I carry often. And if that place allows no weapons, I still carry my pointed flashlight as a minimum for armed carry.

  14. #13
    AzB
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    This would be a good time to have someone along to watch your back. It seems that this is a better and better idea these days.
    Az

    -- Luck favors the well prepared.

  15. #14
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    One time a buddy of mine tried to do a headlock on me from behind, I headbutted him causing him a bloody nose. I just instinctively reacted to how I was trained to deal with an attack from behind and did not know that it was my buddy who was horsing around. He understood and apologized and I apologized for not looking who it was behind me. Then again, you don't have the time to do that.

  16. #15
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    This would be a good time to have someone along to watch your back. It seems that this is a better and better idea these days.
    That's a much better idea. When we used to visit a foreign country, my buddies and I devised a system where we watched his back when he use the ATM. Another one we elaborate is when all 3 of us went out in Rome, I pretty much pretended to be a local and watched the 2, who looked like tourists, from behind since what I wore blended with the environment.

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