Question To Ponder - Page 2

Question To Ponder

This is a discussion on Question To Ponder within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Much to think about!!!!!! If other family members are present ie armed wife or unarmed grandchild it will change the event and actions greatly. 3 ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    Much to think about!!!!!!

    If other family members are present ie armed wife or unarmed grandchild it will change the event and actions greatly.

    3 to1 in a crowd is very very tough, personally if I were to shoot the first BG, I would want to be sure he is down and out.

    Hopefully other 2 may will run out the door as soon as #1 is down.

    If they began to fire wildly into the crowd to cover their retreat all bets are off.

    This would be a good reason to carry a 1911 45acp or equal powerful accurate CC, and work to be very good with it, mouse gun in this case would most likely get many folks shoot.

    JMHO YMMV
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
    -J.R.R. Tolkien


  2. #17
    Member Array xpertz1's Avatar
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    Practice your double taps, I would have every intention of making sure that the perp is DEAD, no longer a threat and sure as hell can't sue me later. I certainly would NOT shoot him in the haed if he was down. I would make sure he went down dead.
    Peace is that brief, glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading.

  3. #18
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    Disarm as you go by. There would be no legal justification or defense to shoot again just because he is still alive and you consider him a threat the only legal issues to follow in that situation is whether you or your cellmate gets the top bunk. Now alive, armed and attempting to engage use whatever force is needed.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Unless you are very fast, you may only get one shot. You would be surprised at how fast people sometimes drop from a single shot.

  5. #20
    Member Array diamond's Avatar
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    I am not an assassin, so I'm not putting a round in his head.

    I guess since I can only read this scenario, and not actually see things going on, I'd not move from my position. If the guy I shot is not dead, then he is as much of a threat at the other two guys.

    I would hold my position and hope the other two guys flee or the cops show up. I also hope that you, BikerRN, are in the same room and that you have already begun to engage and take out at least one of the other two guys.

    That just leaves one bad guy left...and he's out numbered.

  6. #21
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Thank you all for your responses.

    My wife and I discussed this exact scenario, as it is based on an increasing crime trend in our area, or was at the time of our discussion. My response to her were the words, "Get small. You're looking at a dead man. I will come up shooting, and you can go to my funeral and collect on the insurance."Her response to me was, "That's one of the only times I've ever heard you say you will shoot in public."

    Why do I plan to shoot here, and not in many of the various other scenarios? There are various reasons, and I'll try to lay them out here for you all.

    This was a specific crime trend in my area and violence had been escalating significantly over the course of the robberies. Thus it was only a matter of time until someone was killed by this team.

    Second, said medical device is not being given up, along with my second wallet, which contains my work ID. Last, I already believe I'm dead and if by some miricle I happen to survive I will deal with the court system at a later date. If I do in fact deal with the court system that means I have survived against impossible odds.

    I refuse to leave an attacker at my back and I will plan to shoot him as I step over him. Once I have put a bullet in the first one, that is no guarantee that he is out of the fight. Safety of self and others dictates that I make sure he ceases to be a threat as I move forward. My only cover is forward, thus I must move forward. My Mommy didn't raise me to be a bullet sponge and I will do everything in my power to survive that I can.

    I have to be alive to deal with the court system. If by some small miracle I did in fact survive, some lawyer would get rich defending my actions. As I said, I already believe I am dead, so my actions are based on staying alive long enough to ensure the safety of my wife and other patrons. To do that one must unleash violence like they have never unleashed, most likely, before.

    Since a specific restaurant was targeted during this crime spree of felonious monetary acquisition we did the simple thing and stopped eating at that name brand establishment. I'm an advocate of not getting involved unless you involve me or mine. This involves me and mine. Thus, I will attempt to ensure the safety of me and mine, and the world be damned. The other patrons get the benefit of falling under my umbrella, not so much because I wish to save or help them, but because they are there and I'm involved.

    All this talk of sheepdogs and wolves, and the resulting sheep can be a good analogy here folks, as much as I hate the term sheepdog. If you've never seen the violence of a sheepdog protecting the flock against a wolf or other animal, I have some news for you, the sheepdog has to be able to be as violent as the wolf and for a split second in time cannot be distinquished from the wolf. The difference is that once the need for violence ceases the sheepdog reverts back to it's lovable nature.

    I'm still interested in opinions, and your thoughts on this second post as well.

    Biker

    EDIT TO ADD: If you have your gun out, you will be seen as a threat in this scenario by me. If you are legally carrying a weapon be very careful about attempting to provide assistance to another person that is armed.
    Last edited by BikerRN; July 10th, 2010 at 01:02 PM. Reason: see above

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    There is little arguement against the actions of someone who realizes the ramifications of their actions and is willing to accept the consequences.

  8. #23
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    There is little arguement against the actions of someone who realizes the ramifications of their actions and is willing to accept the consequences.
    Howdy Mr. Guantes.

    I wasn't looking to argue, but looking to provide some discussion points. I have already reached my conclusions in this scenario, but am willing to consider other options as well.

    It is no joke when it's said that you risk your freedom when you involve a gun. For me it's about survival. That is man's most primal and primary instinct.

    Biker

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Howdy Mr. Guantes.

    I wasn't looking to argue, but looking to provide some discussion points. I have already reached my conclusions in this scenario, but am willing to consider other options as well.

    It is no joke when it's said that you risk your freedom when you involve a gun. For me it's about survival. That is man's most primal and primary instinct.

    Biker
    Biker,

    Actually my point was in support of your position.

    I think that my earlier suggestion would accomplish your goal, while providing a better legal window.

    Hopefully, your epicurean changes will negate the possibility of the above situation you describe.

    Stay safe.

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Thank you all for your responses.

    My wife and I discussed this exact scenario, as it is based on an increasing crime trend in our area, or was at the time of our discussion. My response to her were the words, "Get small. You're looking at a dead man. I will come up shooting, and you can go to my funeral and collect on the insurance."Her response to me was, "That's one of the only times I've ever heard you say you will shoot in public."

    Why do I plan to shoot here, and not in many of the various other scenarios? There are various reasons, and I'll try to lay them out here for you all.

    This was a specific crime trend in my area and violence had been escalating significantly over the course of the robberies. Thus it was only a matter of time until someone was killed by this team.

    Second, said medical device is not being given up, along with my second wallet, which contains my work ID. Last, I already believe I'm dead and if by some miricle I happen to survive I will deal with the court system at a later date. If I do in fact deal with the court system that means I have survived against impossible odds.

    I refuse to leave an attacker at my back and I will plan to shoot him as I step over him. Once I have put a bullet in the first one, that is no guarantee that he is out of the fight. Safety of self and others dictates that I make sure he ceases to be a threat as I move forward. My only cover is forward, thus I must move forward. My Mommy didn't raise me to be a bullet sponge and I will do everything in my power to survive that I can.

    I have to be alive to deal with the court system. If by some small miracle I did in fact survive, some lawyer would get rich defending my actions. As I said, I already believe I am dead, so my actions are based on staying alive long enough to ensure the safety of my wife and other patrons. To do that one must unleash violence like they have never unleashed, most likely, before.

    Since a specific restaurant was targeted during this crime spree of felonious monetary acquisition we did the simple thing and stopped eating at that name brand establishment. I'm an advocate of not getting involved unless you involve me or mine. This involves me and mine. Thus, I will attempt to ensure the safety of me and mine, and the world be damned. The other patrons get the benefit of falling under my umbrella, not so much because I wish to save or help them, but because they are there and I'm involved.

    All this talk of sheepdogs and wolves, and the resulting sheep can be a good analogy here folks, as much as I hate the term sheepdog. If you've never seen the violence of a sheepdog protecting the flock against a wolf or other animal, I have some news for you, the sheepdog has to be able to be as violent as the wolf and for a split second in time cannot be distinquished from the wolf. The difference is that once the need for violence ceases the sheepdog reverts back to it's lovable nature.

    I'm still interested in opinions, and your thoughts on this second post as well.

    Biker

    EDIT TO ADD: If you have your gun out, you will be seen as a threat in this scenario by me. If you are legally carrying a weapon be very careful about attempting to provide assistance to another person that is armed.
    BikerRN: The scenario as described, would take BGs with much snap to pull it off over and over again, therefore the idea of taking them on by ones self could be very very dangerous.

    Hopefully there will be other CHLs willing to join in to even the odds.

    "All men die, it is just a matter of when" better the BG or BGs now than family member or friend.

    Sheepdogs sometimes loose, but sheepdogs go down with real purpose, BGs go down because they are BGs with bad intent and actions.

    JMO
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
    -J.R.R. Tolkien

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    I attended an active shooter school recently that delt with multi-offenders. One of the particular things that was addressed was the number of times you fire at each shooter. We would like to continue to fire until the threat is no longer active but then your attention may be deverted to long from the other shooters leaving you more vulnerable to their return fire. Excluding the hi-capacity patrol rifles the formula that was suggested for rounds per offender depended on the number of offenders and the number of rounds in your weapon. Double taps were a minimum number of rounds however it was suggested that three to four rounds or more should be placed on each subject if possible. Under the stress of force on force training with simmunitions several officers would only fire one or two rounds at each BG even after being instructed to fire more. We all know it is not how many rounds you fire but how many strike their intended targets. Add stress to the game and hits go down and misses increase. You fight how you train so add stress to your training whenever possible. In the senario presented and depending on the type of firearm you are using the more rounds you placed on the first subject the better the chance that when he went down he would stay down. That said if you are considering ever getting involved in a situation like BikerRN just gave us make sure you have enough gun and enough rounds. In our training we were given Glock 17 simmunition only weapons and two extra magazines each. There were never more than four active shooters in the senario and no more than four officers. Most of us were into our last mag before the threats were eliminated. Several of the officers in the senario's were also eliminated. Just some more food for thought. "When violence is the answer it is the only answer."
    Last edited by Old School; July 10th, 2010 at 04:22 PM.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

    "A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".

    http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

  12. #27
    Member Array diamond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    If you have your gun out, you will be seen as a threat in this scenario by me. If you are legally carrying a weapon be very careful about attempting to provide assistance to another person that is armed.
    But I was taking you out for breakfast, so we were working in tandem against the BGs.


  13. #28
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    Old School:
    Double taps were a minimum number of rounds however it was suggested that three to four rounds or more should be placed on each subject if possible.

    This is training for a fight to the finish against those who will not give up.

    Therefore, I fully agree with the quote.

    5 shot CC or BUG would be a bad choice in this fight.

    If Ben L boys ever move to "run and gun" as a tactic of fright in our land we all may be up gunning for our CC.

    Someone on this thread said, "you fight as you are trained", also you fight with what you have in hand!!!

    JMO
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
    -J.R.R. Tolkien

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Biker,

    You have proven that each individual has there limit on what they will do and when. Ive read many of your post, were you said to be a good witness and for the most part I agree with you.

    This scenario is no different in my mind, I would engage with extreme violence. The first BG that was taken down would receive no mercy from me, I wouldnt shoot him in the head, but would end the threat, while moving to cover. This is one of the few scenarios in which I would engage the threat. As you said, you are involved..
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Howdy all.

    I was discussing a scenario with a friend the other day and wanted to get the varied opinions this forum is sure to produce. I will thank you all in advance, so please consider yourself so thanked if you contribute to this thread.

    You're eating in a fast food restaurant when three armed robbers come in and proceed to do a take-down robbery. They are demanding wallets and cell phones from the customers and the cash from the register. One robber is by the door, so that he can act as a lookout and assist the other two as needed. One is at the cash register and the third proceeds into the dining area voicing his demands.

    You have on your person, besides your gun, something you are unwilling to part with, as it is a medical device. Said medical device often gets mistaken for a cell phone, and is in fact carried in a cell phone holder. The baloon has gone up and you fire and score a solid hit on the one demanding the wallets and cell phones from the paying customers.

    To get to some semblance of cover you have to close distance and also engage the "lookout" by the door. To do so you have to step over the body of the one you just shot, thus having an armed combatant behind you.

    All three are actively engaged in the commision of an armed robbery, which is a crime that you can use deadly force to stop in the jurisdiction that this takes place in. By closing the distance you have gained some cover from the one acting as a lookout and eliminated the one at the cash register from being able to fire at you effectively until he moves to a better position, thus buying you some precious time.

    Here's the $50,000 Question:

    Eventhough the first one is down, you cannot guarantee he is out of the fight. Do you put a bullet in his head as you step over him to get to that precious cover that you so desperately need?

    Think of things with an eye to tactics and legalities, as the legalities will play a big part if your tactics are right.

    Biker
    Interesting and DEADLY scenario...Here's my take...When the 3 armed robbers enter and take positions, they have effectively eliminated my options of exit and being a good witness. The robber that comes into the dining area already has a full view of anyone trying to exit. The only choice left, is the one you took and that is to FIGHT. The solid hit is scored on the dining room robber and he goes down. As I carry two spare mags for either my G26 or my G19, I'm not concerned with round count. If the dining room robber has retained his weapon from my visual observation, then as far as I'm concerned the threat has NOT been stopped. He will require additional rounds either prior to reaching him or upon reaching him. Then for additional insurance, I kick the weapon away as I step over him and move forward toward cover to engage the lookout. I will NOT leave an armed combatant to my rear! As stated, I then engage the lookout either to eliminate the threat or to force him to depart the premises. Then utilizing any cover available, it's time to engage the cash register robber. At NO time do I say to myself, "I'm already dead, so I will not stop"...My mindset is such that I WILL be the victor! I may sustain injuries, of which I will already be prepared for mentally, therefore I must and will continue the fight. Once engaged there is no turning back nor stopping...your only choice is to eliminate the threat(s) and survive. JMO
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

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