Question To Ponder

This is a discussion on Question To Ponder within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by First Sgt Interesting and DEADLY scenario...Here's my take...When the 3 armed robbers enter and take positions, they have effectively eliminated my options ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by First Sgt View Post
    Interesting and DEADLY scenario...Here's my take...When the 3 armed robbers enter and take positions, they have effectively eliminated my options of exit and being a good witness. The robber that comes into the dining area already has a full view of anyone trying to exit. The only choice left, is the one you took and that is to FIGHT. The solid hit is scored on the dining room robber and he goes down. As I carry two spare mags for either my G26 or my G19, I'm not concerned with round count. If the dining room robber has retained his weapon from my visual observation, then as far as I'm concerned the threat has NOT been stopped. He will require additional rounds either prior to reaching him or upon reaching him. Then for additional insurance, I kick the weapon away as I step over him and move forward toward cover to engage the lookout. I will NOT leave an armed combatant to my rear! As stated, I then engage the lookout either to eliminate the threat or to force him to depart the premises. Then utilizing any cover available, it's time to engage the cash register robber. At NO time do I say to myself, "I'm already dead, so I will not stop"...My mindset is such that I WILL be the victor! I may sustain injuries, of which I will already be prepared for mentally, therefore I must and will continue the fight. Once engaged there is no turning back nor stopping...your only choice is to eliminate the threat(s) and survive. JMO
    Fully agree!!!

    This kind of event will happen very quick and if you have not thought about it ahead of time you will be a big disadvantage.

    This thread is a eye opener for me and how I carry and why I carry.

    Thank you Biker RN.!!!!!!!!
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
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    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
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  3. #32
    Member Array phair12's Avatar
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    couple of things.
    1. take their weapon. if it goes missing when all this ends you are on the hook without proof he was armed.
    2. if you shoot a down man especially in the head, you will probably go to jail.
    there was a video on here recently where a drug store owner was getting robbed, he pulled a revolver and shot 1 of the robbers, then chased the other. just for good measure when he returned he reloaded his gun and shot the robber 5 more times after he was down. he is now facing charges.

  4. #33
    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    Once the robber in the dining room is down, what's going on with the other robbers? If they are escaping, the gunfight - and the threat - is over. No mention if either of the others has fired a weapon.

    The one that is down and not moving is managed by removing his gun and giving it to a trusted one to ensure the BG is out of the fight. Followup shots to an unmoving BG is at best a waste of possibly needed ammo, and at worst, and execution that will cost the GG both time (prison) and money.

    To step over the downed BG toward the other BGs is to aggressively continue the fight. Are they still robbing the place, or have they bugged out? No idea. Assume that they shoot at the GG then. At that point, the GG needs to get to cover and stay safe. Realistically, the robbers will leave their downed buddy and run. They know the cops are coming and that they had only a couple of minutes to pull off an armed robbery. If the BGs retreat, the threat is over and the police can earn their wages. Keep in mind that by shooting at the retreating BGs, they will likely return fire recklessly, possibly hitting an innocent. Playing Rambo might be good for the ego but not so great for those who would have otherwise survived the event.

    I'm all for doing what must be done but this really sounds like it's over once the first BG is done. His cohorts would beat a very hasty exit once they see their numerical advantage has gone.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by phair12 View Post
    couple of things.
    1. take their weapon. if it goes missing when all this ends you are on the hook without proof he was armed.
    2. if you shoot a down man especially in the head, you will probably go to jail.
    there was a video on here recently where a drug store owner was getting robbed, he pulled a revolver and shot 1 of the robbers, then chased the other. just for good measure when he returned he reloaded his gun and shot the robber 5 more times after he was down. he is now facing charges.
    There is a difference in shooting a down combatant during a fire fight and shooting someone after the fight is over. The druggist would not have faced charges if he had shot during the robbery attempt. It was the coming back, rearming then shooting that got him in trouble.
    Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.

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  6. #35
    Member Array rickmn50's Avatar
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    The irony of being a bad guy versus a good guy is that he would most likely shoot you in the head given the opportunity. Unfortunately...you would most likely be tried for it and end up in jail with his buddies.

    Nope...no head shot. That is unless he tries to fire on you again.
    Best Regards from Minnesota,

    Rick

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bkrazy View Post
    Question for TangoMonkey- Are you refering to already passing him and not firing or not firing before you pass? I have always understood that you could shoot up to the point you are paralell with the target once you have passed that point Geneva conventions go into effect.
    There is no "magic angle" that determines if you can shoot an enemy combatant or not. The one, single, and sole factor is: is that person a threat. It doesn't matter if you have passed them, haven't passed them, or whatever - if they are a threat, they can be shot. If they aren't, they can't be.

    The rest is so much Barracks Lawyering and military mythology.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    I quit training for single shots. I may not score all hits, but my typical practice from the draw is 5 shots. They may go down quick, but they are also 5 very quick shots. I carry a G19 and an extra mag. So round count is a concern, but not so much to limit it to one shot.

    Ultimately, I guess it would depend on the situation. What is the guy doing on the floor? If he looks out of it, I may turn my back on him briefly. If he's still aggressive, he's going to be treated accordingly. I'm not sure that stopping to disarm him would be a good use of your time here. Tough call. If you choose to disarm him you are, in effect, turning your back on a know armed BG at the door. Focusing your attention on the downed BG to disarm him is really no different than turning your back. You are going to loose track of one of them. Do you want it to be the injured one or the one at the door?

    Your best option here is to score more than one good hit on the first BG. If not, then do what you have to so you walk away from this.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

  9. #38
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    "As I stepped over him officer he tried to grab me and I shot him again."
    Tactical and legal problem solved.
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  10. #39
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Thank you all for your responses. I would like to see this discussion continue, if possible.

    I talked this scenario over, and even acted it out in a walk through with a couple of co-workers. The funny thing is, we had a real life badguy watching and listening.

    I saw him smile when I told a co-worker, "I'm already dead and I don't give a bleep about the law at this point in time." The only sound manuver is to shoot the bugger in the head, as I'm not leaving a badguy at my rear and I need to take the fight to them." He was nodding his head by the time I was done.

    All the talk about sheepdogs, sheep, and wolves is fine, if you live on a farm. This is reality and I had a real life bipedal wolf overhearing what was said. I guess the thing is, sheepdogs have to be like the wolf for that moment in time that it's needed. The kicker is, you risk your freedom, livlihood and life itself when you do so. There is no such thing as a "gentlemanly fight".

    While we would all like to think that the other badguys will run and leave their cohort behind, there is no guarantee that such will be the case. Is it murder? That's for a jury to decide, as I've already stated what I think I'm willing to do. It does not come from being a Rambo, or even a desire to kill another human being. It comes from deep honest reflection with myself and facing the realities of the situation.

    Does that make me too much like the wolf that we are trying to protect the sheep from? I don't know. All I know is that I would rather face the consequences of being tactically superior than tactically inferior in this case. All I'm trying to do in this case is fight long enough and hard enough to ensure the safety of my loved ones. I don't expect to come out of this alive, but stranger things have happened.

    It's not because I will turn belly up, or not fight. It is because I recognize the likely odds of death to myself, and have accepted that. I'm just mean enough that I will take as many of them with me as I can that are a threat to me and mine. Their's an old saying, "I will do what I have to do to go home alive." That is what my actions embody on a daily basis in my work environment. The legal stuff can be dealt with later, but I'm going home. If I can't go home, I will do what I can to ensure the safety of those I love. Nothing else matters to me.

    Biker
    Last edited by BikerRN; July 11th, 2010 at 02:33 AM. Reason: typo

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array automatic slim's Avatar
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    Actually I know of a situation where one subject entered the yard of another while armed with a knife and wearing a bullet resistant vest. The second subject
    had an AR-15 and shoots the first who falls. Second subject continues to fire into the prone corpse of his attacker, but was not charged. The logic was that the attacker was killed by the first shot, SD, so the others were irrelavent. I certainly wouldn't advise shooting someone who's no longer an obvious threat in front of a multitude of witnesses, half of whom are going to get the facts wrong, so I'd say NO.
    "First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand."
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  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array Arko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Thank you all for your responses. I would like to see this discussion continue, if possible.

    I talked this scenario over, and even acted it out in a walk through with a couple of co-workers. The funny thing is, we had a real life badguy watching and listening.

    I saw him smile when I told a co-worker, "I'm already dead and I don't give a bleep about the law at this point in time." The only sound manuver is to shoot the bugger in the head, as I'm not leaving a badguy at my rear and I need to take the fight to them." He was nodding his head by the time I was done.

    All the talk about sheepdogs, sheep, and wolves is fine, if you live on a farm. This is reality and I had a real life bipedal wolf overhearing what was said. I guess the thing is, sheepdogs have to be like the wolf for that moment in time that it's needed. The kicker is, you risk your freedom, livlihood and life itself when you do so. There is no such thing as a "gentlemanly fight".

    While we would all like to think that the other badguys will run and leave their cohort behind, there is no guarantee that such will be the case. Is it murder? That's for a jury to decide, as I've already stated what I think I'm willing to do. It does not come from being a Rambo, or even a desire to kill another human being. It comes from deep honest reflection with myself and facing the realities of the situation.

    Does that make me too much like the wolf that we are trying to protect the sheep from? I don't know. All I know is that I would rather face the consequences of being tactically superior than tactically inferior in this case. All I'm trying to do in this case is fight long enough and hard enough to ensure the safety of my loved ones. I don't expect to come out of this alive, but stranger things have happened.

    It's not because I will turn belly up, or not fight. It is because I recognize the likely odds of death to myself, and have accepted that. I'm just mean enough that I will take as many of them with me as I can that are a threat to me and mine. Their's an old saying, "I will do what I have to do to go home alive." That is what my actions embody on a daily basis in my work environment. The legal stuff can be dealt with later, but I'm going home. If I can't go home, I will do what I can to ensure the safety of those I love. Nothing else matters to me.

    Biker
    Biker,
    Tell us more about the badguy in your presence while you were doing the walk down.
    It piqued my interest that you were a) running a drill and b) in a place where a BG was watching.

    More info?
    "Don't Tread on Me"

  13. #42
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arko View Post
    Biker,
    Tell us more about the badguy in your presence while you were doing the walk down.
    It piqued my interest that you were a) running a drill and b) in a place where a BG was watching.

    More info?
    It wasn't a drill, but we had a convicted felon in the room as we were talking. In fact, he was the reason we were in that room. In spite of him, we had our conversation, as usual. This was someone familiar with the methods of the drug cartels south of the border. Just work as usual.

    Biker

  14. #43
    Distinguished Member Array Arko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    It wasn't a drill, but we had a convicted felon in the room as we were talking. In fact, he was the reason we were in that room. In spite of him, we had our conversation, as usual. This was someone familiar with the methods of the drug cartels south of the border. Just work as usual.

    Biker
    Thanks for (sort of!) sharing!
    "Don't Tread on Me"

  15. #44
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Biker,

    Actually my point was in support of your position.

    I think that my earlier suggestion would accomplish your goal, while providing a better legal window.

    Hopefully, your epicurean changes will negate the possibility of the above situation you describe.

    Stay safe.
    Looking back now I realize that. I never thought we had a real argument going on, and I have always respected your opinion.

    Your suggestion would definately provide a better legal window, but at what cost? I'm envisioning a fast moving scenario where one may not have time to kick the badguy, or the gun. The bullet in the head as I pass over him is about as close to a guarantee as I can get, and even that isn't 100%.

    I too hope that my digestive habit changes forego the need for violent reaction to a bad scenario. Take care my friend and stay safe.

    Biker

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Hit them hard and fast... Shoot each to the ground. I hear two schools of thought on these types of situations, but for me, I want each threat incapacitated, not just wounded. Now, you HAVE to be ready for some fire in your direction, but remember, just like we're thinking about the BG's, just cause we're hit does not mean we're out of the fight.

    A SWAT buddy from a few hours North was down yesterday and we were talking about this in a more general way. I've heard of few shootings with multiple people where they just stood there. In most cases, they're running away and firing, but not all. You hit BG #1 and he goes down, there's a chance the others will run and fire while running. Then there's the chance they'll come at you. Either way, they need to be hit as hard as possible, as fast as possible and as violently as possible.

    This isn't IPDA, these guys are shooting back, plus we don't get the luxury of watching a buddy run the course first. God forbid this actually happened, if the guy in the dining area is close enough, the first shot being a head shot would makes your chance of prevailing much better. Either way, the guy closest NEEDS to be eliminated and if that's the initial head shot, or one while he's on the ground, it is what it is.

    Maybe in California they'd give you some crap, but here in Texas, a man on the ground breathing with a weapon is still a threat that needs some of our loving attention, especially if we're going to put him behind us while we're servicing his friends.

    I don't know about anyone else, but there's no holding back and they'd need to be hit as hard and with as much violence and aggression that we can. Bring the fight to them and don't stop until the threat is gone...or you are.

    * It's easy for me to say all of this while I kick back with my laptop and my Starbucks
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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