Question To Ponder
This is a discussion on Question To Ponder within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by jonconsiglio
Hit them hard and fast... Shoot each to the ground. I hear two schools of thought on these types of situations, ...
July 11th, 2010 11:52 PM
I agree, living in Texas gives the edge to the defender as for as the courts go.
Originally Posted by jonconsiglio
Beyond the possibility of BGs running out shooting after #1 BG goes down, is the actions of other CHL holders who are CC in the restaurant at the same time as the shooting starts.
As wife and I both CC everywhere it is legal, she would be backing me up or I would be backing her up.
This same scenario could be played out at a stop and rob or even at church.
What would be the consequences of missing BG and hitting someone else in the crowd after downing #1BG and taking longer shoots at BG#2or3?????????
Try to make every shot count and on right target.
Hope this type of event never happens, but if it does I would just do my best to effective end the event.
NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
nor the arrow for its swiftness,
nor the warrior for his glory.
I love only that which they defend.
July 12th, 2010 12:41 AM
This makes me happy I carry a 19+1 XDm :p
Seriously though, this is a tough one.
I guess the answer is simple, "you must meet violence with bigger, meaner, louder violence". I would hope to take the first BG out of the fight permanently with my first barrage, so there wouldn't be an issue when I closed to engange. This is where you have the element of suprise, and as such the advantage must be used to its fullest extent.
The dynamics of attempting to stop the threat vs multiple armed aggressors is something one must consider when carrying a firearm for SD, however there isn't much consideration one can do. The situation is dynamic, and you must abide by the above quote if you hope to survive.
If the first BG however was not out of the fight for good, and was still moving, I guess one would have to be more ruthless than all 3 BG's combined and do what it takes to survive. Remember, they made you do this. Do it with conviction.
July 12th, 2010 06:27 PM
Well Biker, this is a tough scenario indeed. Engaging three bad guys who are armed and spread apart in a restaurant is a hard sell to make.
This would be a bad day to be only packing a J-Frame snubby, eh?
Well, you know me pretty well by now, you know I carry two guns and sometimes a third mouse gun. Also, I learned on the street, there's only one way to fight. Balls to the wall. Show no mercy and expect none in return. If I'm not willing to fight to the death, it's not worth me fighting and I'll walk away. That's not to mean, I won't stop before I kill someone in a hand to hand encounter, but I'm willing to go to that extreme if necessary.
I can say since my primary is usually a hi-capacity G-23 and my BUG is a hi-capacity XD9sc, BG#1 is going to get at least 4 center mass as he is going to be the closest to me. I may even wait until he's at arms reach when he approaches my table to ensure as solid hits as possible.
Like you, I don't want to leave a potential BG to my six o'clock, so if his gun is still in his hand as I approach, I'll shoot him again, if not I'm going to kick his gun across the room or under a table.
It should be important to note that it's going to be extremely hard not to get tunnel vision on the first guy I shoot. That is something a person must fight to avoid in order to keep a high level of situational awareness. Especially when you know up front you're gonna be engaging three armed men who are separated.
With any luck, as I move towards cover and close with BG#2, he has already made his escape out the door he is supposed to be watching. However, this sounds like an experienced and hardened crew from what you've described so I'm not banking on that.
BG#2 is tactically the best second target to engage as per your scenario and a lack of shooting lane to the BG working the cash registers. I'm going to shoot BG#2 at least four or five times to ensure he's out of the fight as well. I will be sure to make sure his gun gets kicked well away from his body.
At that point I will likely draw the XD9sc so I can engage BG#3 with full magazine without wasting time trying to reload the Glock. BG#3 is gonna be a crap shoot as he likely has moved from his original position. He may have even taken cover behind the counter and/or taken hostages. He may have even slipped out an exit on the other side of the restaurant. Or he may be charging straight for me. Either way, I'm assuming I have some form of cover as laid out in the original scenario from which to work or evaluate my next move. I'm hoping by that time BG#3 has already bailed on his buddies, but he's getting shot if he's any kind of an exposed target, except running out the door.
I should also point out that my wife also carries everyday, everywhere. We have already discussed her role in many shooting scenarios. Mainly, stay "small," seek cover, watch my six o'clock, and shoot anyone I've already shot who needs shooting again.
I don't carry any delusions I'm going to survive the encounter. But I also don't think it's an impossible scenario either. For one thing, these guys rely on the fact they believe no one except maybe responding LEO's are gonna interfere with them. They are not expecting to engage a determined former Marine with nearly 10 years swat training and his armed and adequately trained wife. Once their initial plan falls apart, they rarely have a well thought out fall back plan.
Whether I live or die, I just pray the good Lord is on my side and helps keep my aim true and that I don't shoot any innocent civilians. I don't expect him to save me... Just keep me from hurting an innocent person before I do die.
I only hope never to face such a situation. Most times I wouldn't shoot until one of them starts shooting innocent people, but this scenario dictated otherwise so "it is what it is."
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
July 12th, 2010 10:54 PM
I think of the big three: Ability, Opportunity and Intent. If I'm not sure and they've already shown all three (would not have been shot without them), then it continues until no longer a threat . . . without a doubt.
Originally Posted by BikerRN
July 12th, 2010 11:10 PM
I reached the conclusion in bold on my first trip into Iraq. Flying into Basra, the C130 came under rocket fire and we flew every which way until we slammed on the deck. My final destination was Baghdad and having to get back on the 130 wasn't exactly something I wanted to do, but had to be done. That trip had me realize one thing; when it's your time, it's your time. That thought carried me through a lot of trips throughout the AOR and there was always a sigh of relief when I reached my destinations.
Originally Posted by Bark'n
July 13th, 2010 08:35 PM
July 15th, 2010 12:32 PM
This seems a pretty good solution. It's better from a legal standpoint, and at least hopefully he only has one weapon. Another plus is that you now have a New York reload in case your EDC goes empty.
Originally Posted by DIABLO9489
July 15th, 2010 12:50 PM
I think the important point here is "If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck"
Originally Posted by BikerRN
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