Question To Ponder

This is a discussion on Question To Ponder within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by jonconsiglio Hit them hard and fast... Shoot each to the ground. I hear two schools of thought on these types of situations, ...

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Thread: Question To Ponder

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Hit them hard and fast... Shoot each to the ground. I hear two schools of thought on these types of situations, but for me, I want each threat incapacitated, not just wounded. Now, you HAVE to be ready for some fire in your direction, but remember, just like we're thinking about the BG's, just cause we're hit does not mean we're out of the fight.

    A SWAT buddy from a few hours North was down yesterday and we were talking about this in a more general way. I've heard of few shootings with multiple people where they just stood there. In most cases, they're running away and firing, but not all. You hit BG #1 and he goes down, there's a chance the others will run and fire while running. Then there's the chance they'll come at you. Either way, they need to be hit as hard as possible, as fast as possible and as violently as possible.

    This isn't IPDA, these guys are shooting back, plus we don't get the luxury of watching a buddy run the course first. God forbid this actually happened, if the guy in the dining area is close enough, the first shot being a head shot would makes your chance of prevailing much better. Either way, the guy closest NEEDS to be eliminated and if that's the initial head shot, or one while he's on the ground, it is what it is.

    Maybe in California they'd give you some crap, but here in Texas, a man on the ground breathing with a weapon is still a threat that needs some of our loving attention, especially if we're going to put him behind us while we're servicing his friends.

    I don't know about anyone else, but there's no holding back and they'd need to be hit as hard and with as much violence and aggression that we can. Bring the fight to them and don't stop until the threat is gone...or you are.

    * It's easy for me to say all of this while I kick back with my laptop and my Starbucks
    I agree, living in Texas gives the edge to the defender as for as the courts go.

    Beyond the possibility of BGs running out shooting after #1 BG goes down, is the actions of other CHL holders who are CC in the restaurant at the same time as the shooting starts.

    As wife and I both CC everywhere it is legal, she would be backing me up or I would be backing her up.

    This same scenario could be played out at a stop and rob or even at church.

    What would be the consequences of missing BG and hitting someone else in the crowd after downing #1BG and taking longer shoots at BG#2or3?????????

    Try to make every shot count and on right target.

    Hope this type of event never happens, but if it does I would just do my best to effective end the event.
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
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  3. #47
    Member Array Jcabin's Avatar
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    This makes me happy I carry a 19+1 XDm :p

    Seriously though, this is a tough one.

    I guess the answer is simple, "you must meet violence with bigger, meaner, louder violence". I would hope to take the first BG out of the fight permanently with my first barrage, so there wouldn't be an issue when I closed to engange. This is where you have the element of suprise, and as such the advantage must be used to its fullest extent.

    The dynamics of attempting to stop the threat vs multiple armed aggressors is something one must consider when carrying a firearm for SD, however there isn't much consideration one can do. The situation is dynamic, and you must abide by the above quote if you hope to survive.

    If the first BG however was not out of the fight for good, and was still moving, I guess one would have to be more ruthless than all 3 BG's combined and do what it takes to survive. Remember, they made you do this. Do it with conviction.

    -jtalkingoutofhisbottomcabin

  4. #48
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    Well Biker, this is a tough scenario indeed. Engaging three bad guys who are armed and spread apart in a restaurant is a hard sell to make.

    This would be a bad day to be only packing a J-Frame snubby, eh?

    Well, you know me pretty well by now, you know I carry two guns and sometimes a third mouse gun. Also, I learned on the street, there's only one way to fight. Balls to the wall. Show no mercy and expect none in return. If I'm not willing to fight to the death, it's not worth me fighting and I'll walk away. That's not to mean, I won't stop before I kill someone in a hand to hand encounter, but I'm willing to go to that extreme if necessary.

    I can say since my primary is usually a hi-capacity G-23 and my BUG is a hi-capacity XD9sc, BG#1 is going to get at least 4 center mass as he is going to be the closest to me. I may even wait until he's at arms reach when he approaches my table to ensure as solid hits as possible.

    Like you, I don't want to leave a potential BG to my six o'clock, so if his gun is still in his hand as I approach, I'll shoot him again, if not I'm going to kick his gun across the room or under a table.

    It should be important to note that it's going to be extremely hard not to get tunnel vision on the first guy I shoot. That is something a person must fight to avoid in order to keep a high level of situational awareness. Especially when you know up front you're gonna be engaging three armed men who are separated.

    With any luck, as I move towards cover and close with BG#2, he has already made his escape out the door he is supposed to be watching. However, this sounds like an experienced and hardened crew from what you've described so I'm not banking on that.

    BG#2 is tactically the best second target to engage as per your scenario and a lack of shooting lane to the BG working the cash registers. I'm going to shoot BG#2 at least four or five times to ensure he's out of the fight as well. I will be sure to make sure his gun gets kicked well away from his body.

    At that point I will likely draw the XD9sc so I can engage BG#3 with full magazine without wasting time trying to reload the Glock. BG#3 is gonna be a crap shoot as he likely has moved from his original position. He may have even taken cover behind the counter and/or taken hostages. He may have even slipped out an exit on the other side of the restaurant. Or he may be charging straight for me. Either way, I'm assuming I have some form of cover as laid out in the original scenario from which to work or evaluate my next move. I'm hoping by that time BG#3 has already bailed on his buddies, but he's getting shot if he's any kind of an exposed target, except running out the door.

    I should also point out that my wife also carries everyday, everywhere. We have already discussed her role in many shooting scenarios. Mainly, stay "small," seek cover, watch my six o'clock, and shoot anyone I've already shot who needs shooting again.

    I don't carry any delusions I'm going to survive the encounter. But I also don't think it's an impossible scenario either. For one thing, these guys rely on the fact they believe no one except maybe responding LEO's are gonna interfere with them. They are not expecting to engage a determined former Marine with nearly 10 years swat training and his armed and adequately trained wife. Once their initial plan falls apart, they rarely have a well thought out fall back plan.

    Whether I live or die, I just pray the good Lord is on my side and helps keep my aim true and that I don't shoot any innocent civilians. I don't expect him to save me... Just keep me from hurting an innocent person before I do die.

    I only hope never to face such a situation. Most times I wouldn't shoot until one of them starts shooting innocent people, but this scenario dictated otherwise so "it is what it is."

    YMMV
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  5. #49
    Senior Member Array cz75luver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Even though the first one is down, you cannot guarantee he is out of the fight. Do you put a bullet in his head as you step over him to get to that precious cover that you so desperately need?

    Think of things with an eye to tactics and legalities, as the legalities will play a big part if your tactics are right.

    Biker
    I think of the big three: Ability, Opportunity and Intent. If I'm not sure and they've already shown all three (would not have been shot without them), then it continues until no longer a threat . . . without a doubt.

  6. #50
    Senior Member Array cz75luver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Whether I live or die, I just pray the good Lord is on my side and helps keep my aim true and that I don't shoot any innocent civilians. I don't expect him to save me... Just keep me from hurting an innocent person before I do die.
    I reached the conclusion in bold on my first trip into Iraq. Flying into Basra, the C130 came under rocket fire and we flew every which way until we slammed on the deck. My final destination was Baghdad and having to get back on the 130 wasn't exactly something I wanted to do, but had to be done. That trip had me realize one thing; when it's your time, it's your time. That thought carried me through a lot of trips throughout the AOR and there was always a sigh of relief when I reached my destinations.

  7. #51
    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diamond View Post
    I am not an assassin, so I'm not putting a round in his head.

    I guess since I can only read this scenario, and not actually see things going on, I'd not move from my position. If the guy I shot is not dead, then he is as much of a threat at the other two guys.

    I would hold my position and hope the other two guys flee or the cops show up. I also hope that you, BikerRN, are in the same room and that you have already begun to engage and take out at least one of the other two guys.

    That just leaves one bad guy left...and he's out numbered.
    great stuff^
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    Accuracy ALWAYS WINS! So carry what you can hit with.

    If you find yourself in a fair fight your tactics stink.

  8. #52
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIABLO9489 View Post
    I think you would have a hard time justifying putting a round into the guys head as you go by considering he is down already. The only thing I would think about is possibly removing the gun from his immediate vicinity. Whether that be by picking it up or just kicking it away as I'm going by him.
    This seems a pretty good solution. It's better from a legal standpoint, and at least hopefully he only has one weapon. Another plus is that you now have a New York reload in case your EDC goes empty.

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Thank you all for your responses. I would like to see this discussion continue, if possible.

    I talked this scenario over, and even acted it out in a walk through with a couple of co-workers. The funny thing is, we had a real life badguy watching and listening.

    I saw him smile when I told a co-worker, "I'm already dead and I don't give a bleep about the law at this point in time." The only sound manuver is to shoot the bugger in the head, as I'm not leaving a badguy at my rear and I need to take the fight to them." He was nodding his head by the time I was done.

    All the talk about sheepdogs, sheep, and wolves is fine, if you live on a farm. This is reality and I had a real life bipedal wolf overhearing what was said. I guess the thing is, sheepdogs have to be like the wolf for that moment in time that it's needed. The kicker is, you risk your freedom, livlihood and life itself when you do so. There is no such thing as a "gentlemanly fight".

    While we would all like to think that the other badguys will run and leave their cohort behind, there is no guarantee that such will be the case. Is it murder? That's for a jury to decide, as I've already stated what I think I'm willing to do. It does not come from being a Rambo, or even a desire to kill another human being. It comes from deep honest reflection with myself and facing the realities of the situation.

    Does that make me too much like the wolf that we are trying to protect the sheep from? I don't know. All I know is that I would rather face the consequences of being tactically superior than tactically inferior in this case. All I'm trying to do in this case is fight long enough and hard enough to ensure the safety of my loved ones. I don't expect to come out of this alive, but stranger things have happened.

    It's not because I will turn belly up, or not fight. It is because I recognize the likely odds of death to myself, and have accepted that. I'm just mean enough that I will take as many of them with me as I can that are a threat to me and mine. Their's an old saying, "I will do what I have to do to go home alive." That is what my actions embody on a daily basis in my work environment. The legal stuff can be dealt with later, but I'm going home. If I can't go home, I will do what I can to ensure the safety of those I love. Nothing else matters to me.

    Biker
    I think the important point here is "If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck"

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