Question To Ponder

Question To Ponder

This is a discussion on Question To Ponder within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Howdy all. I was discussing a scenario with a friend the other day and wanted to get the varied opinions this forum is sure to ...

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 53

Thread: Question To Ponder

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    State of Discombobulation
    Posts
    5,253

    Question To Ponder

    Howdy all.

    I was discussing a scenario with a friend the other day and wanted to get the varied opinions this forum is sure to produce. I will thank you all in advance, so please consider yourself so thanked if you contribute to this thread.

    You're eating in a fast food restaurant when three armed robbers come in and proceed to do a take-down robbery. They are demanding wallets and cell phones from the customers and the cash from the register. One robber is by the door, so that he can act as a lookout and assist the other two as needed. One is at the cash register and the third proceeds into the dining area voicing his demands.

    You have on your person, besides your gun, something you are unwilling to part with, as it is a medical device. Said medical device often gets mistaken for a cell phone, and is in fact carried in a cell phone holder. The baloon has gone up and you fire and score a solid hit on the one demanding the wallets and cell phones from the paying customers.

    To get to some semblance of cover you have to close distance and also engage the "lookout" by the door. To do so you have to step over the body of the one you just shot, thus having an armed combatant behind you.

    All three are actively engaged in the commision of an armed robbery, which is a crime that you can use deadly force to stop in the jurisdiction that this takes place in. By closing the distance you have gained some cover from the one acting as a lookout and eliminated the one at the cash register from being able to fire at you effectively until he moves to a better position, thus buying you some precious time.

    Here's the $50,000 Question:

    Eventhough the first one is down, you cannot guarantee he is out of the fight. Do you put a bullet in his head as you step over him to get to that precious cover that you so desperately need?

    Think of things with an eye to tactics and legalities, as the legalities will play a big part if your tactics are right.

    Biker


  2. #2
    Member Array TangoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ft Benning, GA
    Posts
    118
    Cant do it in Iraq, I am sure as heck betting I cant do it in the States. Forget moving, you already opened fire, just keep the rounds coming.
    "When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the
    scabbard." -General Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson

  3. #3
    Member Array TangoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ft Benning, GA
    Posts
    118
    I answered first, do I get that $50,000?
    "When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the
    scabbard." -General Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array DIABLO9489's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Buffalo
    Posts
    1,071
    I think you would have a hard time justifying putting a round into the guys head as you go by considering he is down already. The only thing I would think about is possibly removing the gun from his immediate vicinity. Whether that be by picking it up or just kicking it away as I'm going by him.
    Colt New Agent, Dan Wesson V-Bob, Glock 19,20SF, 23, 26, 27, 29, 30SF, 36, Kahr P380 w/CT, PM9, PM45, CW9(SOLD), Kel-Tec P32, P3AT, PF9(SOLD), Kimber Ultra Crimson Carry II, Stainless Pro TLE/RL II (SOLD), Rohrbaugh R9s, Ruger LCP w/CT, LCR, SP101 S&W J-Frame 638 w/CT, M&P 340 w/CT, Walther PPK/S

  5. #5
    Member Array Bkrazy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    GTA Germany
    Posts
    322
    Bullet in the head as I step over? I dunno how that will look on the camera (Hi mom). A round or two as I aproach him and try and kick his weapon away as I step over him? Yes. Cant spare the ammo? Then a hard head kick or nut stomp enroute to cover. I cannot let a THREAT be behind me so it MUST be eliminated before I cross it.

    Question for TangoMonkey- Are you refering to already passing him and not firing or not firing before you pass? I have always understood that you could shoot up to the point you are paralell with the target once you have passed that point Geneva conventions go into effect.
    Please take my posts with a grain of salt. I am frequently sleep deprived and always just on this side of "Krazy".

    When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle. Edmund Burke

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Wyoming, DE
    Posts
    11,136
    I'm going to tap him again before I go past him, just to make sure. You are not just protecting yourself at this point, I'll argue with the legal system if I live through this encounter.
    Hiram25
    You can educate ignorance, you can't fix stupid
    Retired DE Trooper, SA XD40 SC, S&W 2" Airweight
    dukalmighty & Pure Kustom Black Ops Pro "Trooper" Holsters, DE CCDW and LEOSA Permits, Vietnam Vet 68-69 Pleiku

  7. #7
    Member Array SteveinNEPA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Tobyhanna,PA
    Posts
    469
    A round or two as I approach him and try and kick his weapon away as I step over him? Yes
    I'm going to tap him again before I go past him, just to make sure. You are not just protecting yourself at this point, I'll argue with the legal system if I live through this encounter.
    ^^^^Agreed

    Ill make sure if he goes down he is OUT. Weather its a kick to the throat or another double tap. Ill fight it out with the system and take my chances, i wont risk an armed attacker being BEHIND me and "hope" he is out of the equation. Just my .02, seeing as how there is MORE than 1 armed aggressor here.
    BETTER TO BE TRIED BY 12 THAN CARRIED BY 6
    Hesitation kills faster than a bullet.
    If your head is up your *$$ you are unaware of danger. You are in the perfect position to kiss it goodbye.
    Open Carry LAW for Pennsylvania
    http://www.thecrimsonpirate.com/rtkb...pdate_2009.pdf

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    2,050
    Remember that riddle? Ten crows on a fence and you shoot one. How many are left?
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  9. #9
    VIP Member
    Array WHEC724's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    6,614
    Quote Originally Posted by TangoMonkey View Post
    Cant do it in Iraq, I am sure as heck betting I cant do it in the States. Forget moving, you already opened fire, just keep the rounds coming.
    True, but you gain a lot of rights back when you become a civilian.

    I've never shot a human, but if I did, I can't imagine just shooting them once? Especially with a handgun of any type?

    However, the scenario described mandates that I've only hit him once... I'll pop him again as I approach and deal with consequences later. My safety comes before his at this point.
    __________________________________
    'Clinging to my guns and religion

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    OKC; by way of St. Mayberry, GA
    Posts
    4,750
    As per your sceaniro, I'd engage the lookout then 'check' the first BG while moving to engage third BG if possiable. With patrons on the deck, putting a 'follow-up' bullet in BG #1 might be necessary, but maybe ill-advised as well. In a gunfight it's game on and not insuring BG #1 isn't out of the fight is possiably even 'more' ill-advised.

    The gunfight your in is dynamic and very liquid. Many patrons around with BG's and you firing. Movement and any concealment is your friend.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay

  11. #11
    VIP Member
    Array archer51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    21,863
    Interesting situation. If the downed robber is still alive and moving, he's a threat and still in the fight. A good lawyer shouldn't have a problem showing you were acting within the law by firing the shot to end the threat.

    I'm not willing to put an armed shooter at my back, that is asking to get shot.
    Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.

    USAF Retired
    NRA Life Member

  12. #12
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Here's the $50,000 Question:

    Eventhough the first one is down, you cannot guarantee he is out of the fight. Do you put a bullet in his head as you step over him to get to that precious cover that you so desperately need?

    Biker
    My cell phone has access to all my passwords, I never carry cash or credit cards in my wallet and no thief is going to buy it when I hand him an empty wallet. So I'm kinda stuck, I'll fight.

    I wouldn't put one in the bad guy's head because it would look like exactly what it was, an execution. I'm also not "stepping " over anyone the place to be in a firefight is on the ground
    Last edited by Treo; July 10th, 2010 at 11:20 PM.

  13. #13
    VIP Member
    Array oneshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    +42.893612,-082.710236 , Mi.
    Posts
    8,355
    WoW!!!!!!!
    Good stuff Biker.
    Very intriguing.
    I'm following in Uncle Tedlys camp; The Double Tap Center Mass camp that is.
    As soon as I commit to shooting, they get "DTCM" then its off to confront the next one, with the hope that another patron has their eye on BG#1 and perhaps is even covering them with their own concealed weapon,,,,,,,
    Hopefully both rounds have done their job in taking them out of the fight.

    Yeah yeah I know, HOPE is not a plan, but in a situation like this, its about all I got.
    I don't believe I could , in good conscious , sit through a trial and hear one of the witnesses saying something to the effect, "Well your honor, the Thug was just laying on the ground after he was shot by Mr. soandso, not moving at all, and he,(Mr. soandso) just came by and plugged him a couple more times .
    That would be kinda hard to listen to. JMHO

    "I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts."
    Will Rogers
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

    Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to defeat the British, He shot them!

    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." -- Ernest Benn

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array JohnK87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Hastings, MN
    Posts
    600
    The question is moot- one shot center mass wasn't enough. There will be two or more before you move on.

    Can I have my wife cover the guy I leave behind?

    Lacking that, though, no coup de grace. If he's down and not moving I'm moving quickly past him to engage the others. Legally, you'd be facing a similar situation as that guy who came back, reloaded and shot the kid on the floor. Now, if he's still moving and holding the gun, he's still a threat and he gets another shot.
    ‎An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    5,272
    Move his weapon or take it and pistol whip him as I go by. He is not going to get up afterward and if it kills him the force could be attributed to the adrenalin rush of the moment.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Something To Ponder!!
    By GunnyBunny in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: March 11th, 2011, 02:20 PM
  2. Something to ponder
    By UnklFungus in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: January 12th, 2010, 03:27 AM
  3. OK... here's something to ponder
    By Huzar in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: September 23rd, 2006, 10:26 PM