BG Orders All CCWs to Toss Their Weapons - Page 6

BG Orders All CCWs to Toss Their Weapons

This is a discussion on BG Orders All CCWs to Toss Their Weapons within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 9MMare Bill Jordan? He taught that? I'd like to see a source for that. I go by what Mas teaches...that proximity outweighs ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Bill Jordan?

    He taught that? I'd like to see a source for that.

    I go by what Mas teaches...that proximity outweighs skill. And his (bg's) finger is already on the trigger (proximity to trigger).

    I don't believe that the context that the comment, "proximity negates skill" - which Mas attributes to Clint Smith, is being applied in the context in which it was intended. At least as I perceive it the reference is in proximity of the individual to the opponent, not trigger fingers, etc.

    There is also reference to recommendations by "Bill Jordan" and others for such situations.

    Below is an excerpt from the 2002 article by Mas Ayoob.




    Aritcle: Going To War. (COP TALK)
    American Handgunner Jan 1, 2002 by Mas Ayoob

    The majority of cops who are shot to death in the line of duty are killed within less than 7 yards. Most of those are killed within 3 yards. And at that deadly close distance, the single most dangerous place to be is within 3 feet. Within Arm's Reach, which master unarmed combat instructor Cliff Stewart appropriately notes acronymizes into "WAR."

    These are the close quarters you have to be in when you're arresting a suspect, and it means you're tight enough together for him to be able to reach your service handgun, whether it's in your holster or in your hand.

    It's in tight enough where any bozo who has never fired his stolen gun before can shove the muzzle into you and pull the trigger. As the great tactical police instructor Clint Smith says at his school, Thunder Ranch, "Proximity negates skill."

    Plan A for the private citizen is, "Never get that close." Plan A doesn't work for cops. How do we handcuff? Telekinesis? The police officer has to enter The Hole routinely in the line of duty. And citizens find themselves there when they are victimized, attacked suddenly at the closest range.

    My old friend and mentor Bill Jordan recommended "shooting from the hip" in this situation. Jeff Cooper and Chuck Taylor promulgated the "Speed Rock," stylized from cowboy fast draw, with the shoulders rocking back and the officer firing as the gun clears leather. The posture keeps the shot from going downward, correcting a failing in hip shooting, but it's still awfully tough to put the shot in the center of the opponent's body.

    Rotating the pistol's sights outward, toward your gun-hand side, helps angle the muzzle more toward the center of the opponent's body, and also helps prevent a recoiling auto-pistol slide from jamming against your body or winter coat.


  2. #77
    Senior Member Array CCWFlaRuger's Avatar
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    3 words, Cold Dead Hand. You can fill in the rest.
    "You will not rise to the occasion and you will not default to your level of training. You WILL ONLY default to the level of training you have mastered."
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  3. #78
    Member Array ECHOONE's Avatar
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    If I give him one I'll have to shoot him with my other!

  4. #79
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    if your gonna shoot, shoot!
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  5. #80
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECHOONE View Post
    If I give him one I'll have to shoot him with my other!
    You know, that's probably the last thing he'd expect, haha. "Here, take it, I don't want any trouble. (1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi) BANGBANGBANGBANG"
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  6. #81
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    I don't think I'm giving up my weapon; PERIOD!

    Multiple BGs would complicate things. But, it wouldn't change the fact; I'm NOT giving up my weapon without a fight.

    I'm biding my time & looking for an opportunity to do a safe "tactical" unload. (230 grains at a time)

  7. #82
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    I don't believe that the context that the comment, "proximity negates skill" - which Mas attributes to Clint Smith, is being applied in the context in which it was intended. At least as I perceive it the reference is in proximity of the individual to the opponent, not trigger fingers, etc.

    There is also reference to recommendations by "Bill Jordan" and others for such situations.

    Below is an excerpt from the 2002 article by Mas Ayoob.




    Aritcle: Going To War. (COP TALK)
    American Handgunner Jan 1, 2002 by Mas Ayoob

    The majority of cops who are shot to death in the line of duty are killed within less than 7 yards. Most of those are killed within 3 yards. And at that deadly close distance, the single most dangerous place to be is within 3 feet. Within Arm's Reach, which master unarmed combat instructor Cliff Stewart appropriately notes acronymizes into "WAR."

    These are the close quarters you have to be in when you're arresting a suspect, and it means you're tight enough together for him to be able to reach your service handgun, whether it's in your holster or in your hand.

    It's in tight enough where any bozo who has never fired his stolen gun before can shove the muzzle into you and pull the trigger. As the great tactical police instructor Clint Smith says at his school, Thunder Ranch, "Proximity negates skill."

    Plan A for the private citizen is, "Never get that close." Plan A doesn't work for cops. How do we handcuff? Telekinesis? The police officer has to enter The Hole routinely in the line of duty. And citizens find themselves there when they are victimized, attacked suddenly at the closest range.

    My old friend and mentor Bill Jordan recommended "shooting from the hip" in this situation. Jeff Cooper and Chuck Taylor promulgated the "Speed Rock," stylized from cowboy fast draw, with the shoulders rocking back and the officer firing as the gun clears leather. The posture keeps the shot from going downward, correcting a failing in hip shooting, but it's still awfully tough to put the shot in the center of the opponent's body.

    Rotating the pistol's sights outward, toward your gun-hand side, helps angle the muzzle more toward the center of the opponent's body, and also helps prevent a recoiling auto-pistol slide from jamming against your body or winter coat.
    Sorry, I didnt mean to muddy the waters. THe article you posted is what I've read before and how I understand it. I just brought it to a micro-level, perhaps innacurately.

    It was about timing and risk....depending on distance, if you havent drawn and he already has his out and his finger on the trigger....it doesnt really matter how fast (skill) you can draw....the results are highly not in your favor. If close enough in that situation, many experts believe that CQB is a better alternative (more chance of success). For those trained of course.
    Fortune favors the bold.

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    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  8. #83
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    There are, no doubt, times that combatives would be the best action.

  9. #84
    Member Array steelhawk's Avatar
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    I am not giving up my gun to the BG in this scenario. There is no way he can tell I am armed. He will get distracted searching people. If I fear for my safety, and the opportunity presents itself, he is toast.

  10. #85
    Senior Member Array gwhall57's Avatar
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    I don't think it's ever a good idea to give up my gun, especially if it's well concealed. My first instinct would be to try to divert the BG's attention away from me somehow, and then defend my life.
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  11. #86
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    Yup, unanimous - WON'T GIVE UP MY WEAPON.

    He's obviously pointing a handgun at me and despite his 'nobody will get hurt', his crack about 'killing the person beside me' is the green light.

    Since this is a very broad-based scenario, the green light COULD just be pulling his weapon.
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  12. #87
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    I'm with Bark'n and retsupt99 on this one.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  13. #88
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    I do not find this to be a realistic scenario. Most bank robberies tend to be fast affairs and in a lot of cases the customers in the bank when it happens are unaware that the bank is being robbed. Seldom if ever do you see a robber take over a bank, make everyone lay down of herd them into the vault as you see in the movies. They last less than a minute, the robber talks to one single teller in a quiet tone and in a lot of them, a weapon is never even seen.
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  14. #89
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Most "take over" bank robberies, when they do occur, involve more than one susp.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by SigFan View Post
    On your way home from work, you stop to run into the bank (or a store, or a restaurant, etc). You're finishing up your transaction when you hear a voice scream "Nobody move. Just keep cool and everyone gets out alive." You realize an young man with a Glock 19 is robbing the place. He gets everyone to one side of the building and says "Don't think about being a hero today. If you're carrying, raise your hand. One at a time, you're gonna slowly pull out your piece, put it on the floor and kick it over here. If I find anyone carrying a gun, you get to watch the person next to you die before it's your turn."

    You're carrying and you have no idea who else may be. You might be the only one or there might be many more. What do you do? What variable change the answer - If he has a shotgun instead of the pistol? If there are two robbers?
    A robber armed with a G19 walks into a bank a full of people whom might carry firearms and tell them “Don't think about being a hero today. If you're carrying, raise your hand, One at a time, you're gonna slowly pull out your piece, put it on the floor and kick it over here.”? I am sorry, but that sounds a little too unrealistic to me. BG’s do not use to be so smart, but I do not think that they are so dumb either.
    "The Second Amendment: America's Original Homeland Security"

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