Citizens Arrest, What Would You DO - Page 2

Citizens Arrest, What Would You DO

This is a discussion on Citizens Arrest, What Would You DO within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Sorry to say this but... I too have been a LEO and have a whole bunch of training and experience but I would never have ...

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  1. #16
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    Sorry to say this but... I too have been a LEO and have a whole bunch of training and experience but I would never have executed a stop and arrest. I understand your concern but that's just me. Me being NOT a LEO anymore! You are very fortunate things turned out as well as they did.

    When I wore a badge it was instinctive to draw your weapon when your partner said "GUN"! I don't know where you trained.
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  2. #17
    Member Array Jcabin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    Jcabin, not only is holding someone against their will as a private citizen illegal and criminal confinement unless in some states you are a security guard or LP guy, even then it is a touchy situation, can only hold em for so long, for certain things, etc. etc.
    That is in the duty of ones job, it's always touchy.

    Citizens have MORE power than a security guard or loss prevention employee has...

    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    The pulling in front of him and slowing down to stop him is reckless driving, and impersonating an officer by pulling someone over, even without lights and sirens it is impersonating.
    So pulling infront of someone is impersonating a police officer? I can block someone from continuing on the roadway, that doesn't mean I'm impersonating a police officer. In order to impersonate a police officer, one has to go to very specific lengths. Using your vehicle to stop a drunk moron from continuing his dangerous rampage is not impersonation. Where are you coming up with this stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    The OP could have been in some serious trouble for criminal confinement, reckless endangerment, impersonating an officer, and his buddy could have been arrested for all of those and brandishing a firearm. The fact that they both had firearms ups every charge to a felony and we're now talking serious jail time for something like this. You even state that the arrest to be a valid citizens arrest has to be for a felony or breach of the peace and take place in front of a LEO, which now that you are out of that line of work, LEO you are not. I am sorry if I sound offensive, but you should have known better than to do that. Call police, let them handle it, and if need be since you witnessed it, with an officer present effect citizens arrest.
    Again, you seem not to understand citizens arrest. To top that off, if a police officer was present, why would you try and arrest someone?

    ETA: What do you think people did before we gave away all of our responsibility to the police? Just let nut jobs run rampant until the single sheriff could find them?
    I don't condone what the OP did, but I don't think it was a bad thing. I also wouldn't advise an untrained person to attempt such a feat.

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    ummmmm to the comment where you state citizens have more rights and power than LP's and security officers, last time i checked when i pin my badge on and go to work, i don't give up citizenship....., not to mention in a large number of states, most security officers are considered peace officers by the state such as Virginia, secondly, the gentleman in the op posted that his intent was to stop a DUI offender and stopped the car, If you tried something like that with me and you were not a LEO, I would own your house,car, and everything you own because I would sue your pants off, if i didn't shoot your friend and you for brandishing weapons at me as you pulled me out of my car.


    And no, you cannot block someone from continuing on their way unless they are committing a felony, unless you are LEO or security. If you honestly think that you have the right to go running around pulling in front of people and stopping them because you think you have the right as a citizen to do so, please reread state law and get an attorney, because you will need one if you ever do so
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  4. #19
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    I'm not gonna say much about this topic other than to say that I have responded to a several horrific fatalities that were caused by drunk drivers. Terrible scenes that are forever etched in my brain.

    I would much rather have a citizen, any citizen stop one in any manner that they could and hold them there for the closest cop to arrest.

    Yeah, it takes balls. Yes it can be dangerous. But you know what?

    It's worth it. Although one can never know what might have happened, I have seen the results and I applaud anyone with the guts to do so.

    Sure...one could be a good witness and call 911, but if that drunk driver leaves the road and kills a family or a kid or someones Grandma or Grandpa that phone call didn't do much good did it?
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    ummmmm to the comment where you state citizens have more rights and power than LP's and security officers, last time i checked when i pin my badge on and go to work, i don't give up citizenship....., not to mention in a large number of states, most security officers are considered peace officers by the state such as Virginia, secondly, the gentleman in the op posted that his intent was to stop a DUI offender and stopped the car, If you tried something like that with me and you were not a LEO, I would own your house,car, and everything you own because I would sue your pants off, if i didn't shoot your friend and you for brandishing weapons at me as you pulled me out of my car.


    And no, you cannot block someone from continuing on their way unless they are committing a felony, unless you are LEO or security. If you honestly think that you have the right to go running around pulling in front of people and stopping them because you think you have the right as a citizen to do so, please reread state law and get an attorney, because you will need one if you ever do so
    I think that little tin badge has gone to your head friend. Did you learn critical reading skills when you took the 2 hour course? I never said that you can go around doing as you please.

  6. #21
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    This is the Arizona Law, sorry if your states take away your powers.

    ARIZONA REVISED STATUES

    13-3884. Arrest by private person
    A private person may make an arrest:
    1. When the person to be arrested has in his presence committed a misdemeanor amounting to a breach of the peace, or a felony.
    2. When a felony has been in fact committed and he has reasonable ground to believe that the person to be arrested has committed it.
    13-3889. Method of arrest by private person
    A private person when making an arrest shall inform the person to be arrested of the intention to arrest him and the cause of the arrest, unless he is then engaged in the commission of an offense, or is pursued immediately after its commission or after an escape, or flees or forcibly resists before the person making the arrest has opportunity so to inform him, or when the giving of such information will imperil the arrest.
    13-3882. Time of making arrest
    An arrest may be made on any day and at any time of the day or night.
    13-3881. Arrest; how made; force and restraint
    A. An arrest is made by an actual restraint of the person to be arrested, or by his submission to the custody of the person making the arrest.
    B. No unnecessary or unreasonable force shall be used in making an arrest, and the person arrested shall not be subjected to any greater restraint than necessary for his detention.

    13-3892. Right of private person to break into building
    A private person, in order to make an arrest where a felony was committed in his presence, as authorized in section 13-3884, may break open a door or window of any building in which the person to be arrested is or is reasonably believed to be, if he is refused admittance after he has announced his purpose.

    13-3900. Duty of private person after making arrest
    A private person who has made an arrest shall without unnecessary delay take the person arrested before the nearest or most accessible magistrate in the county in which the arrest was made, or deliver him to a peace officer, who shall without unnecessary delay take him before such magistrate. The private person or officer so taking the person arrested before the magistrate shall make before the magistrate a complaint, which shall set forth the facts showing the offense for which the person was arrested. If, however, the officer cannot make the complaint, the private person who delivered the person arrested to the officer shall accompany the officer before the magistrate and shall make to the magistrate the complaint against the person arrested.
     
    A citizen's arrest is a constitutionally protected right under the Ninth Amendment as its impact includes the individual's natural right to self preservation and the defense of the others. Indeed, the laws of citizens arrest appear to be predicated upon the effectiveness of the Second Amendment. Simply put, without firepower, people are less likely going to be able to make a citizen's arrest. States as well as the District of Columbia indicates that a citizen's arrest is valid when a public offense was committed in the presence of the arresting private citizen or when the arresting private citizen has a reasonable belief that the suspect has committed a felony, whether or not in the presence of the arresting citizen.

    Read more: Legal Requirements for Making a Citizens Arrest - Dinar Vets Message Board
    E. Jay Fleming
    Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
    Mohave Valley, AZ

    "A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." Abraham Lincoln

  7. #22
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    A mans gotta do what a mans gotta do.

    The way I see it, if more people would get involved instead of hiding in the dark and making excuses for not acting, the world might be a better place to live.

    But I'm simple like that.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  8. #23
    Member Array Jcabin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    A mans gotta do what a mans gotta do.

    The way I see it, if more people would get involved instead of hiding in the dark and making excuses for not acting, the world might be a better place to live.

    But I'm simple like that.
    Wait HotGuns, just hold on! You're going to be sued!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  9. #24
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    It could happen I suppose.

    If they do sue, they'd better have their stuff in one sock.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  10. #25
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    Theres a line between citizens arrest and committing the crimes of impersonating a police officer. The statute is correct and accurate, however, nowhere in there does it say you have the right to conduct a felony traffic stop, and pull someone out of a car at gunpoint, crime or not. I understand that you can conduct citizens arrest, but this is not a case where you can justify every action that took place by saying oh well it was a citizens arrest, so it is ok, The point is, yes, you can arrest someone for a felony, you however cannot stop their vehicle by using aggressive driving maneuvers, ordering them out of the vehicle, and putting them on the ground while doing so. The fact is that the OP impersonated an officer, and I am fairly certain most LEO's on this forum will agree with me
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  11. #26
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    Most people seem to have a problem with the definition of impersonation, not only on this forum, but most others.

    Enacting a citizens arrest is not impersonation. I might see where it could be argued if it was illegal in that state, but impersonation requires more than an act that is similar to what an LEO might do, it requires the person to make the arrestee beleive that he or she is an LEO.

    Some people would argue that any means used to arrest is to impersonate.
    Generally that is not the case.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    That is in the duty of ones job, it's always touchy.

    Citizens have MORE power than a security guard or loss prevention employee has...



    So pulling infront of someone is impersonating a police officer? I can block someone from continuing on the roadway, that doesn't mean I'm impersonating a police officer. In order to impersonate a police officer, one has to go to very specific lengths. Using your vehicle to stop a drunk moron from continuing his dangerous rampage is not impersonation. Where are you coming up with this stuff?



    Again, you seem not to understand citizens arrest. To top that off, if a police officer was present, why would you try and arrest someone?

    ETA: What do you think people did before we gave away all of our responsibility to the police? Just let nut jobs run rampant until the single sheriff could find them?
    I don't condone what the OP did, but I don't think it was a bad thing. I also wouldn't advise an untrained person to attempt such a feat.
    In Pennsylvania, in accordance with PA Cons. Statutes a citizen could be charged with at least two counts not including brandishing a firearm -


    (1) 2902. Unlawful restraint.
    (a) Offense defined.--A person commits an offense if he
    knowingly:
    (1) restrains another unlawfully in circumstances
    exposing him to risk of serious bodily injury; or
    (2) holds another in a condition of involuntary
    servitude.
    (b) Grading.--
    (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), an offense
    under subsection (a) is a misdemeanor of the first degree.
    (2) If the victim of the offense is an individual under
    18 years of age, an offense under subsection (a) is a felony
    of the second degree.
    (Dec. 30, 1974, P.L.1120, No.361, eff. imd.; Dec. 20, 2000,
    P.L.721, No.98, eff. imd.)

    2000 Amendment. Section 3(1) of Act 98 provided that the
    amendment of section 2902 shall apply to offenses committed on
    or after the effective date of Act 98. See the preamble to Act
    98 in the appendix to this title for special provisions relating
    to legislative intent.
    Cross References. Section 2902 is referred to in section
    6105 of this title; sections 5303, 6344 of Title 23 (Domestic
    Relations).

    (2) 4912. Impersonating a public servant.
    A person commits a misdemeanor of the second degree if he
    falsely pretends to hold a position in the public service with
    intent to induce another to submit to such pretended official
    authority or otherwise to act in reliance upon that pretense to
    his prejudice.

    Cross References. Section 4912 is referred to in section
    6105 of this title; section 5552 of Title 42 (Judiciary and
    Judicial Procedure).


    Montana Code Annotated 2009 does have a provision for citizen arrest as do several other states including Missouri.

    46-6-502. Arrest by private person. (1) A private person may arrest another when there is probable cause to believe that the person is committing or has committed an offense and the existing circumstances require the person's immediate arrest. The private person may use reasonable force to detain the arrested person.
    (2) A private person making an arrest shall immediately notify the nearest available law enforcement agency or peace officer and give custody of the person arrested to the officer or agency.

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  13. #28
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    Hot Guns, if i pulled up in front of you, while you were driving intoxicated (not that you ever would, I am sure you are a very mature, careful individual who would not do something like that, I am just saying hypothetically speaking.) and pulled you over in this method, then myself and another gentleman got out of our car and pulled you out of the car while telling you that you were under arrest for DUI, would you or would you not believe that these gentleman were LEO's. Therefore, the intent to pull over a vehicle, and "arrest" this man for DUI under citizens arrest law was present. The gentleman could testify that he thought you were a LEO. And the fact that you told him he was under arrest further solidified this. I can see a jury being very willing to slap the irons on you for impersonation. At the very least he could win in civil court. This is why I am arguing with such vehemency that this is impersonation. The intent does not matter, it is the impression that this gentleman, and any passers by would see you and your friend and assume that you were police by your actions.

    Not trying to be rude or a brassmole, just putting my argument out there.

    Hope we can still all be friends
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    This is why I am arguing with such vehemency that this is impersonation. The intent does not matter, it is the impression that this gentleman, and any passers by would see you and your friend and assume that you were police by your actions.
    45-7-209. Impersonation of public servant. (1) A person commits the offense of impersonating a public servant if the person falsely pretends to hold a position in the public service with the purpose to induce another individual to submit to the pretended official authority or otherwise to act in reliance upon that pretense to the individual's prejudice.


    If you would be so kind as to explain to me how intent does not matter when it is part of the statute.

  15. #30
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    INccwchris,

    I see your point but that doesnt make it correct.

    Most LEO's, (the ones around here anyway) even if in plain clothes, show a badge in any interaction with the public. We all have the chained badges that you wear under your shirt and you just pull it out when you take an official action while announcing the fact that you are the Police.
    In other words, there wil be no doubt that the Police are the Police.

    In a court of law, assumptions dont matter. One must articulate why he though they were police if there was no evidence of the contrary and him saying " I thought" usually isnt enough to do it. Let me throw in a disclaimer here...if citizens arrests are illegal in that state, then it would be a different matter.

    You would be correct in stating that what a jury in Indiana might find as criminal, a jury in Arkansas might not. What flys in one state may not fly in another.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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