Citizens Arrest, What Would You DO

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Thread: Citizens Arrest, What Would You DO

  1. #61
    New Member Array LEAPSpeaker's Avatar
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    You need sit in a crushed unrecognizable vehicle at two in the morning, starting large bore IV's on a 10 year old girl while holding her hand, because you knew that was all you could do for her because of a drunk, but I guess most of you wouldn't do that either, after all you might get sued......

    I've seen too much death from drunk drivers. I've arrested DUI's as a cop, worked on the dying as a paramedic, and told families a loved one is dead as a crisis team victim’s advocate. When you've held the hand of a 10 year old girl as her life slips away, then you can criticize me for taking this guy off the road.

    It's easy to not get involved, but when that situation comes where you really need to act, will you, or will you be like most people today, and just not get involved.......and be a good witness….
    E. Jay Fleming
    Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
    Mohave Valley, AZ

    "A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." Abraham Lincoln

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  3. #62
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    I want to know what the final resolution was.
    According to the newspaper story the Op was under investigation not treated like a hero.

  4. #63
    Member Array Jcabin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    I want to know what the final resolution was.
    According to the newspaper story the Op was under investigation not treated like a hero.
    Read the OP. No charges were brought.

  5. #64
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    good job ! balls yes , smart cant decide , but for sure any na sayers here would change their mind if he had run over just their cat !
    in my mind swerving and driving that reckless and drinking = a huge deadly weapon

    and if it were a legal problem 911 should have said " sir we do not advise "

    and if it were/ is legal ( citizens arrest ) and they said "sir we do not advise" and the driver kills another person ????

    i say bravo , frankly i dont give a fart if you pull 2 guns , he was a deadly weapon , and put several peoples lives at steak , id say you saved at least his life , and he should thank you ... tell em i said so


    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    In Pennsylvania, in accordance with PA Cons. Statutes a citizen could be charged with at least two counts not including brandishing a firearm -


    (1) 2902. Unlawful restraint.
    (a) Offense defined.--A person commits an offense if he
    knowingly:
    (1) restrains another unlawfully in circumstances
    exposing him to risk of serious bodily injury; or
    (2) holds another in a condition of involuntary
    servitude.
    (b) Grading.--
    (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), an offense
    under subsection (a) is a misdemeanor of the first degree.
    (2) If the victim of the offense is an individual under
    18 years of age, an offense under subsection (a) is a felony
    of the second degree.
    (Dec. 30, 1974, P.L.1120, No.361, eff. imd.; Dec. 20, 2000,
    P.L.721, No.98, eff. imd.)

    2000 Amendment. Section 3(1) of Act 98 provided that the
    amendment of section 2902 shall apply to offenses committed on
    or after the effective date of Act 98. See the preamble to Act
    98 in the appendix to this title for special provisions relating
    to legislative intent.
    Cross References. Section 2902 is referred to in section
    6105 of this title; sections 5303, 6344 of Title 23 (Domestic
    Relations).

    (2) 4912. Impersonating a public servant.
    A person commits a misdemeanor of the second degree if he
    falsely pretends to hold a position in the public service with
    intent to induce another to submit to such pretended official
    authority or otherwise to act in reliance upon that pretense to
    his prejudice.

    Cross References. Section 4912 is referred to in section
    6105 of this title; section 5552 of Title 42 (Judiciary and
    Judicial Procedure).


    Montana Code Annotated 2009 does have a provision for citizen arrest as do several other states including Missouri.

    46-6-502. Arrest by private person. (1) A private person may arrest another when there is probable cause to believe that the person is committing or has committed an offense and the existing circumstances require the person's immediate arrest. The private person may use reasonable force to detain the arrested person.
    (2) A private person making an arrest shall immediately notify the nearest available law enforcement agency or peace officer and give custody of the person arrested to the officer or agency.

    As you said, know your laws...

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^wrong , and right ,,, ^^^^^^^^
    referring to PA laws
    this is taken out of context and is not referring to a " citizens arrest "

    vvvvvv below however is ... vvvvvv

    We note that the power of Sheriffs to arrest for crimes committed in their presence is no different from that of a private citizen. In Commonwealth v. Chermansky, 430 Pa. 170, 242 A.2d 237, 239 (Pa. 1968), we reiterated that "a private person [***24] in fresh pursuit of one who has committed a felony may arrest without a warrant. And in Pennsylvania we have [**775] always followed the common law rule that if the felon flees and his arrest cannot be effected without killing him, the killing is justified." However, we narrowed the types of felonies for which the rule was applicable and held that:

    from this date forward the use of deadly force by a private person in order to prevent the escape of one who has committed a felony or has joined or assisted in the commission of a felony is justified only if the felony committed is treason, murder, voluntary manslaughter, mayhem, arson, robbery, common law rape, common law burglary, kidnapping, assault with intent to murder, rape or rob, or a felony which normally causes or threatens death or great bodily harm.


    Id.at 240. See Commonwealth v. Corley, 316 Pa. Super. 327, 462 A.2d 1374, 1379 (Pa. Super. 1993) ("we hold that a citizen's arrest can be made for a breach of the peace that is personally observed by the arrestor."), aff'd on other grounds, 507 Pa. 540, 491 A.2d 829, 834 (Pa. 1985) (declining to rule on the issue).
    -------
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  6. #65
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Alcohol level of .32 ? WOW. I think most people would be glad he was off the road.

    Here, citizen's arrest are legal and using the level of force necessary to protect oneself, and make the arrest. The "kicker " here is, you aren't well protected at all if it's a misdemeanor charge, but if it's a felony charge... then most things are pretty well covered "within reason". However, some might not like the fact a gun was pulled ... unless you had seen he had a gun in the car, in which case they probably wouldn't care...

    Ironic on DWI's here, they are a misdeamnor until you get the 2nd or 3rd one, which turns it into a felony charge. Repeat DWI offender.

    Being a GOOD WITNESS, I found doesn't work well on DWI's. I have called 911 4 times on seriously drunk people... who were going to kill someone. One guy would bounce from one bridge railing to the other... tearing up both sides of his car. In another, he clipped 3 cars and hit a school bus with kids in it, and kept going.

    The Police, never showed up in any of those calls......... in one, the guy plowed into a stopped car at 60 mph, then they took it serious. The one hitting the bridges on the highway... 1 hour on the phone and keeping our distance well back from him.... and he finally ran across the median, thru the on-coming traffic to the ditch on the other side and rolled it.

    So much for being a good witness. It made me wonder how many people have to end up dead before they respond to a call.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  7. #66
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLASS3NH View Post
    Let the POLICE make the stop, and THEN, tell them (the Police) based on all the bahavior you've witnessed, you wish to make a Citizen's Arrest in their presence. Hopefully, the LEOS will step back, let you read the perp his rights, and then let the LEOS take over from there. If the PD won't let you read the Perp his rights, then you'll make an excellent witness.
    Why would you Mirandize a DUI susp?

    What does Mirandizing the susp have to do with determining if you are a witness or arresting citizen?

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Why would you Mirandize a DUI susp?

    What does Mirandizing the susp have to do with determining if you are a witness or arresting citizen?
    hey, maybe I'm wrong, but the Police didn't see the incident and I did. MAYBE I'd ASK the LEOS what THEY wanted me to do in this case where I had called it in, and obvserved and reported the incident. If THEY wanted me to read him his rights, because I had witnessed the events(reckless driving, driving to endanger, etc) then I'd do as they asked. Then again, I've been wrong before and it's only my own opinion here.
    Why Waltz when you can Rock-N-Roll

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEAPSpeaker View Post
    ...When you've held the hand of a 10 year old girl as her life slips away, then you can criticize me for taking this guy off the road...
    You gave your experience on a scenario forum - where others can try to figure out a better solution. Then you complain that not everyone wants to give you a medal?

    You now present a false dilemma. It wasn't "Force the car off the road, pull the guy from the car and put his face into the ground" OR "Do nothing".

    Nor did your solution - which worked OK that time - have no flaws. You could have killed someone in forcing the car to stop - severely drunk drivers aren't known for their skill. You could have had him swerve to get around you and in the process hit an oncoming car. You could have been racing back to him when he accelerated and drove over you - which is what I would have done in his place. Then you are dead. Pulling a gun? I'd have shot you at point blank range. Do you like the taste of a .357?

    I don't give a rat's rear end if someone used to be a cop. No cop car, no uniform - they're no different than I am. What is a former cop? A civilian!

    You got away with it once. Glad it worked out - that time. But if you post your experience here, you are ASKING people to give other options - not just provide electronic applause. And I've given reasons why your solution doesn't appeal to me.

  10. #69
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLASS3NH View Post
    hey, maybe I'm wrong, but the Police didn't see the incident and you did (reckless driving, driving to endanger, etc) let's see, what other charges could be imposed? oh yeah, DUI. Then again, I've bee wrong before.
    Not trying to bust your chops.
    Mirandizing is not normally necessary for DUI arrests.
    IF you were to be the arresting person, advising the susp that you were arresting him for DUI and singing the booking slip as the arresting person, not Miranda, would be the important factors.

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    A mans gotta do what a mans gotta do.

    The way I see it, if more people would get involved instead of hiding in the dark and making excuses for not acting, the world might be a better place to live.

    But I'm simple like that.
    I was going to stay out of it, I really was, but I have to say I agree with you 1000%.
    Semper Paratus

    ‎"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell

  12. #71
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    The way I see it, if more people would get involved instead of hiding in the dark and making excuses for not acting, the world might be a better place to live.

    But I'm simple like that.
    Yes, that's the quick response and it's very easy to draw two groups: those who take action and the "sheep" who don't but it misses the point: the law is there - meaning the requirements for a citizens arrest to include absolute certainty based on objective and factual events of a crime, and only doing that which will not make the situation worse and not acting at all unless it's factually called for and being liable for serious charges for being wrong - all of these laws are to protect the majority of the people the majority of the time. And ask yourself what if the man swerving in the car was not drunk but old and critically ill, disoriented and unable to speak clealry, and died because he was forced to the ground instead of EMTs being immediately called who might have saved him.

    If that old man was your father, would it would be OK because someone had the courage to act - even though they got it completely wrong and killed him?

    Courage without wisdom is being a fool.
    And a dangerous one. (I don't mean the OP) -

    The impulse to act can be heroic at times - so can the impulse to wait and observe and seek aid; and the same person can have both.

    That this incident ended well is great. What is being discussed is whether the decisions and actions of those who acted to intervene are to be taken as laudable role models for similar situations. My opinion is no; because they will harm most people most of the time.

    This isn't a question of sheep.
    Last edited by hamlet; July 13th, 2010 at 04:07 AM.

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeti View Post
    good job ! balls yes , smart cant decide , but for sure any na sayers here would change their mind if he had run over just their cat !
    in my mind swerving and driving that reckless and drinking = a huge deadly weapon

    and if it were a legal problem 911 should have said " sir we do not advise "

    and if it were/ is legal ( citizens arrest ) and they said "sir we do not advise" and the driver kills another person ????

    i say bravo , frankly i dont give a fart if you pull 2 guns , he was a deadly weapon , and put several peoples lives at steak , id say you saved at least his life , and he should thank you ... tell em i said so





    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^wrong , and right ,,, ^^^^^^^^
    referring to PA laws
    this is taken out of context and is not referring to a " citizens arrest "

    vvvvvv below however is ... vvvvvv

    We note that the power of Sheriffs to arrest for crimes committed in their presence is no different from that of a private citizen. In Commonwealth v. Chermansky, 430 Pa. 170, 242 A.2d 237, 239 (Pa. 1968), we reiterated that "a private person [***24] in fresh pursuit of one who has committed a felony may arrest without a warrant. And in Pennsylvania we have [**775] always followed the common law rule that if the felon flees and his arrest cannot be effected without killing him, the killing is justified." However, we narrowed the types of felonies for which the rule was applicable and held that:

    from this date forward the use of deadly force by a private person in order to prevent the escape of one who has committed a felony or has joined or assisted in the commission of a felony is justified only if the felony committed is treason, murder, voluntary manslaughter, mayhem, arson, robbery, common law rape, common law burglary, kidnapping, assault with intent to murder, rape or rob, or a felony which normally causes or threatens death or great bodily harm.


    Id.at 240. See Commonwealth v. Corley, 316 Pa. Super. 327, 462 A.2d 1374, 1379 (Pa. Super. 1993) ("we hold that a citizen's arrest can be made for a breach of the peace that is personally observed by the arrestor."), aff'd on other grounds, 507 Pa. 540, 491 A.2d 829, 834 (Pa. 1985) (declining to rule on the issue).
    -------
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    The PA statute is not out of context. It is current law.
    The court case you reference only applies to a felony. DUI's are not normally felonys.
    All states have some type of "citizen arrest" provision. How they are interpreted by the court depends on all the circumstances.

    Unless my life was being threated, I would not go around playing cop making traffic stops and pulling a gun on someone. That is not my job.

    How others say they feel about a situation is not always the same as how they would act. Talk is cheap.
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
    - Zen Saying

  14. #73
    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Not trying to bust your chops.
    Mirandizing is not normally necessary for DUI arrests.
    IF you were to be the arresting person, advising the susp that you were arresting him for DUI and singing the booking slip as the arresting person, not Miranda, would be the important factors.
    I know you weren't busting em You were attempting to help provide a solution/ best answer to the original posting
    We're all here, giving our thoughts on the best way to handle the situation. That's how we learn from one another and that's way this is one of the best Forums on the Web
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  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    The PA statute is not out of context. It is current law.
    The court case you reference only applies to a felony. DUI's are not normally felonys.
    All states have some type of "citizen arrest" provision. How they are interpreted by the court depends on all the circumstances.

    Unless my life was being threated, I would not go around playing cop making traffic stops and pulling a gun on someone. That is not my job.

    How others say they feel about a situation is not always the same as how they would act. Talk is cheap.

    by out of context , i was not saying , it is not a law..... what you posted is in fact is a law , however " citizens arrest " is listed as another code ,

    however in support of your post , i herd a story that took place in Pa last year where a home owner found someone in his house , the would be robber ran out of the house , the home owner gave chase , the robber took cover under a parked car less than a block away , home owner drags said criminal from under car , causes some sort of
    injury , detains the robber until leo show up ,
    the robber ended up being a minor , the home owner was arrested , charged , and did time for among other things kidnapping ,due too the fact that he was a minor , and detained the robber aginst his will , and to top it off was sued by the parents of the minor !

    so you are not wrong sir , not at all

    nor i would ever put my self playing the role of leo , and was not suggesting that i would have made the same call as the op -


    on another note .... hows the 250 ?

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeti View Post
    by out of context , i was not saying , it is not a law..... what you posted is in fact is a law , however " citizens arrest " is listed as another code ,

    however in support of your post , i herd a story that took place in Pa last year where a home owner found someone in his house , the would be robber ran out of the house , the home owner gave chase , the robber took cover under a parked car less than a block away , home owner drags said criminal from under car , causes some sort of
    injury , detains the robber until leo show up ,
    the robber ended up being a minor , the home owner was arrested , charged , and did time for among other things kidnapping ,due too the fact that he was a minor , and detained the robber aginst his will , and to top it off was sued by the parents of the minor !

    so you are not wrong sir , not at all

    nor i would ever put my self playing the role of leo , and was not suggesting that i would have made the same call as the op -


    on another note .... hows the 250 ?
    As you can see, some of the posts here get more attention than others. Most members here with minimal CCW safety training at least have had some exposure to law related to firearms. Having a little knowledge may be dangerous but knowing the basic difference between right and wrong when it comes to firearms is less dangerous than knowing nothing at all.
    Some answers here are going to be based more on a writers personal conviction about a thread rather than what can actually happen, such as the case involving a minor that you mention.

    I don't want get off topic, but what's not to like about a Sig. The P250 mostly just goes to the range now but it is one of my favorites.
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
    - Zen Saying

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