good thinking and correct use of a CC weapon - Page 5

good thinking and correct use of a CC weapon

This is a discussion on good thinking and correct use of a CC weapon within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ctsketch true, in a one of one i'm more likely to feel confident going hand to hand, but if this was some ...

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Thread: good thinking and correct use of a CC weapon

  1. #61
    Member Array bsms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    true, in a one of one i'm more likely to feel confident going hand to hand, but if this was some champion fighter or just someone lucky who started beating me into the pavement I may change my tune...after all let us not forget we are not the aggressor in this situation. hopefully i'd be able to just get him away from me and run.
    Then we agree, and are just not communicating it well. Sorry for any confusion I caused.


  2. #62
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    I think the confusion comes from the fact that some of us are talking about the scenario as is (you are overpowered and on the ground being beaten within an inch of your life) and some of us are talking about what to do before then (one on one, unarmed attacker)
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoyomeng View Post
    I can't believe this is being argued on this forum of all places. If your on the ground after fighting, loosing, and still are being beaten and you're still thinking if you should shoot or not then you're either going to die or end up in the hospital.
    C'mon. Let's be realistic. There are plenty of alternative outcomes. The OP scenario involved many witnesses any one or more of whom may have ended the attack at any instant - effectively covering oneself from the blows or even turning the tables with proper technique - not to mention the possibility of the cavalry to the rescue.

    If you equate a bloody nose and some defensive scrapes with "ending up in the hospital" and then with cause for shooting a man then stay in hiding under your bed. Take your lumps home and lick your wounds. It happens all the time. What are you talking about?

    OTOH, Crossing one's fingers - hoping and waiting - is not effective response to an attack. As posters say, an attacker who persists threatening serious bodily injury when there is no threat to him is asking for escalation. But other scenarios without witnesses or such disparity of force by a felonious nut and no other weapon on the scene - aren't as automatic.

    The discussion is appropriate to the forum and this "Scenarios" topic.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    Any one that thinks they can take on an aggressor just because they are nearly the same age had better know that their hand to hand skills are the best in the world because if theirs are not, the aggressor's just might be!
    This fails the "reasonable man" standard. It doesn't take "the best in the world" to win a fist fight. Is your defense at your unlawful shooting trial that, "My hand-to-hand skills are not the best in the world"?
    Just because someone out there is the best fist-fighter in the world doesn't mean the rest of us can shoot any and all unarmed aggressors instead of using body methods.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  5. #65
    Member Array yoyomeng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    C'mon. Let's be realistic. There are plenty of alternative outcomes. The OP scenario involved many witnesses any one or more of whom may have ended the attack at any instant - effectively covering oneself from the blows or even turning the tables with proper technique - not to mention the possibility of the cavalry to the rescue.

    If you equate a bloody nose and some defensive scrapes with "ending up in the hospital" and then with cause for shooting a man then stay in hiding under your bed. Take your lumps home and lick your wounds. It happens all the time. What are you talking about?

    OTOH, Crossing one's fingers - hoping and waiting - is not effective response to an attack. As posters say, an attacker who persists threatening serious bodily injury when there is no threat to him is asking for escalation. But other scenarios without witnesses or such disparity of force by a felonious nut and no other weapon on the scene - aren't as automatic.

    The discussion is appropriate to the forum and this "Scenarios" topic.
    I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say either after reading your line starting with OTOH...that paragraph seems a contradiction to the beginning of your post.

    For the most part we're speaking in generalities here. Sure there are other possible outcomes, but that means waiting for the guy to continue beating your, stop or be stopped somehow. I'd venture to guess most wouldn't just place the choice in other people's hands. There are situations where everybody stands there and watches the scene unfold, others intervene - I guess I wouldn't wait to find out the character of the bystanders, and you can almost bet on cops not arriving in the minute it could take.

    In general if you're on the ground being stomped to **** after loosing the initial fight you will have more than bumps and bruises. Isn't that why being stomped is considered lethal force (am I wrong there)? Not a go home and lick your wounds situation in my eyes. I guess we disagree here, I'm not willing to chance it for someone to run up and stop the guy. Protect your self and rely on your self

  6. #66
    Member Array 9mmPro's Avatar
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    shoot and answer questions later.
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  7. #67
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    Shoot and have your lawyer answer the questions.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoyomeng View Post
    I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say either after reading your line starting with OTOH...that paragraph seems a contradiction to the beginning of your post.

    For the most part we're speaking in generalities here. Sure there are other possible outcomes, but that means waiting for the guy to continue beating your, stop or be stopped somehow. I'd venture to guess most wouldn't just place the choice in other people's hands. There are situations where everybody stands there and watches the scene unfold, others intervene - I guess I wouldn't wait to find out the character of the bystanders, and you can almost bet on cops not arriving in the minute it could take.

    In general if you're on the ground being stomped to **** after loosing the initial fight you will have more than bumps and bruises. Isn't that why being stomped is considered lethal force (am I wrong there)? Not a go home and lick your wounds situation in my eyes. I guess we disagree here, I'm not willing to chance it for someone to run up and stop the guy. Protect your self and rely on your self
    Yeah, "generalities". The "reasonable man" standard and witness accounts are important. And the situation is not as clear as many are posting.

    A lot depends. It is a reasonable belief that stomping is a cause of fear of grave bodily injury. But if you (not just you but the "shoot 'im" posters, in general) read the OP, witnesses do not report that the shooter was ever "on the ground being stomped".

    Witnesses told police, a man in his 20s apparently attacked the 52-year-old man, punching and kicking him until he fell to the sidewalk. The older man pulled out a .357-caliber Ruger revolver and fired one round, striking the man in the abdomen.
    The older man "was not winning the fight" - the other man "just starts attacking him, he's on the ground and a shot is fired."
    We don't know why the GG was losing the fight. Probably surprise and shock from multiple blows out of the blue. Lot's of 52-year-olds are able to give a good account of themselves even against 20-somethings. We don't even know why a CC permit holder was not aware of all of the commotion of multiple random assaults.

    INAL, but the GG would best prove that, at the moment of the shooting, the BG had the ability and was in the act of pressing an attack that could lead to death or grave injury. A prosecutor has a lot to work with, here. You've gotta protect yourself from acting illegally.

    However we may feel about street justice, no man is above the law.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  9. #69
    Member Array Spirit of 76's Avatar
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    100 years ago a much larger percentage of folks lived in rural America and had closer or first-hand experience with firearms. Today the sad reality is that the majority of your "peers" who could make up your jury don't have the faintest understanding of firearms or how they should be used in a self-defense scenario. The fact that you were carrying a caliber "even larger than the police do" or hollow point bullets is used to portray you as a premeditated killer. I have friends who really can't comprehend why you shouldn't aim for an arm or leg rather than COM if you are trying to stop an attacker! Scary to think about that mentality judging me.

  10. #70
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    I remember that incident very clearly when it happened, and I am reminded of it every time I walk past Westlake. We've had three such incidents in recent years in Seattle.

    The reality is that Daniel Culotti was a dangerous schizophrenic and should have been under supervision. Instead he was free on the streets with only an overwhelmed probation officer to keep track of him, and using crack cocaine, which probably made him even worse.

    An interesting twist that nobody mentioned is that the good guy was also homeless.

    Culotti's uncle wrote an opinion piece later that blamed the shooter for not running.

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  11. #71
    Senior Member Array Moga's Avatar
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    100 years ago a much larger percentage of folks lived in rural America and had closer or first-hand experience with firearms. Today the sad reality is that the majority of your "peers" who could make up your jury don't have the faintest understanding of firearms or how they should be used in a self-defense scenario. The fact that you were carrying a caliber "even larger than the police do" or hollow point bullets is used to portray you as a premeditated killer. I have friends who really can't comprehend why you shouldn't aim for an arm or leg rather than COM if you are trying to stop an attacker! Scary to think about that mentality judging me.
    Having lived in New York State for decades, I can honestly say that most of what you described is very localized to that particular place of residence, especially the last two sentences.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    You guys seem to be missing the definition needed to justify lethal force. If someone punches me multiple times, it may be felony assault. That doesn't mean I'm in fear for my life and that I would be justified in shooting that person.

    This is scary, and people need to learn the law.
    Okay. Let's say that you're 5' 7" and 125 pounds, plus out of shape. You're being violently assaulted by a guy who is 6' 3" and 230 pounds, all muscle. He's also yelling, "I'm going to kill you!"

    The bottom line is that you (might) have to convince a jury that you were in imminent fear of death or serious bodily injury. Very seldom are these things perfectly black/white and by the books. Every situation is different.
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  13. #73
    VIP Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit of 76 View Post
    100 years ago a much larger percentage of folks lived in rural America and had closer or first-hand experience with firearms. Today the sad reality is that the majority of your "peers" who could make up your jury don't have the faintest understanding of firearms or how they should be used in a self-defense scenario. The fact that you were carrying a caliber "even larger than the police do" or hollow point bullets is used to portray you as a premeditated killer. I have friends who really can't comprehend why you shouldn't aim for an arm or leg rather than COM if you are trying to stop an attacker! Scary to think about that mentality judging me.
    Agreed. But of course, a prosecutor can twist anything around to suit his or her purposes.

    Let's say you're carrying a .32 caliber mousegun:

    Him: "So, Mr. Spirit. You claim that you carry a gun strictly for self defense. Is that correct?"

    You: "Yes, sir."

    Him: "Yet, you saw fit to unload seven rounds on the poor, innocent, helpless victim here, then reloaded and shot four more times, correct?"

    You: "Well, I, um..."

    Now let's say that you're carrying a .45:

    Him: "So, Mr. Spirit. You claim that you carry a gun strictly for self defense. Is that correct?"

    You: "Yes, sir."

    Him: "But are you aware that even the police only carry .40 caliber guns? Why, your gun is .5 bigger than theirs!!!!"

    And as you stated, the general public is clueless about guns these days. That jury can be filled with "soccer moms" and "white collar" types who "know" from watching TV that one shot from a mighty 9mm will send a 6' 8", 350-pound man flying 20 feet back to splatter against the wall while three gallons of blood coats the entire area!

    So yeah, it's a scary legal environment these days and practically nothing is carved in stone.
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  14. #74
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXD View Post
    Agreed. But of course, a prosecutor can twist anything around to suit his or her purposes.

    Let's say you're carrying a .32 caliber mousegun:

    Him: "So, Mr. Spirit. You claim that you carry a gun strictly for self defense. Is that correct?"

    You: "Yes, sir."

    Him: "Yet, you saw fit to unload seven rounds on the poor, innocent, helpless victim here, then reloaded and shot four more times, correct?"

    You: "Well, I, um..."

    Now let's say that you're carrying a .45:

    Him: "So, Mr. Spirit. You claim that you carry a gun strictly for self defense. Is that correct?"

    You: "Yes, sir."

    Him: "But are you aware that even the police only carry .40 caliber guns? Why, your gun is .5 bigger than theirs!!!!"

    And as you stated, the general public is clueless about guns these days. That jury can be filled with "soccer moms" and "white collar" types who "know" from watching TV that one shot from a mighty 9mm will send a 6' 8", 350-pound man flying 20 feet back to splatter against the wall while three gallons of blood coats the entire area!

    So yeah, it's a scary legal environment these days and practically nothing is carved in stone.
    clearly the answer is to carry a 9mm!!!

    lol, I bet instead of ".05 bigger" they will say 11.3% larger! sounds more impressive, lol
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  15. #75
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    Wow....never thought I'd hear such an unbiased report from the Seattle Times of all places.

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