good thinking and correct use of a CC weapon

[bsms]

Fighting on the ground is A LOT messier than this...

It has been 20 years since I took any martial arts lessons, and longer since I was in a real fight, but I don't recall ever being tempted to throw myself on my back and shout, "Come & get me!" It is also a difficult spot for getting to and employing a gun from most holster positions. The force in a stomp comes from the weight and movement of your body, as is true of a strong punch. A kick from the ground relies on muscle strength, and Jack Dempsey used to say that no one knocked out another person on muscle strength.

I've argued on this thread that being on the ground does not necessarily justify shooting, but it is certainly true that one is far more vulnerable. A lot depends on the specific circumstances, but no one needs to endure getting stomped before shooting.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[shockwave]

Just wondering if you've sparred to prove this theory out.

Often. Against multiple attackers also. Did I say that fighting from the ground is a pleasant and preferable option? On the other hand, it's not "game over," either. Depending.

kicking up from lying on your back does not generate the same force as a stomp

Well you can put your weight on a stomp, sure. The point is that unlike kicking from a standing position, from the ground you don't have to worry about balancing on a single leg, which is similar to a stomp in that respect. In case any of this is unclear, let me point out that you don't want to hang around down on the ground. Don't take a nap down there. If you get the chance, try to get back to your feet as quickly as possible.

In the situation posed in the OP, if you're carrying IWB at 4 o'clock, and on your back on the ground, you'd have to roll a bit and sweep your jacket or shirt to get a draw, and that might take time that you don't have. So like I said, let's say you kick out and score on a knee. There's your window.

[jonconsiglio]

Often. Against multiple attackers also. Did I say that fighting from the ground is a pleasant and preferable option? On the other hand, it's not "game over," either. Depending.

This is actually a very effective technique in Krav maga.. not one I'd like to have to use though!

In Florida (gotta love Florida self-defense laws), SB-436, the "Castle Doctrine" (Chapter No. 2005-27), establishes 3 critical points:

1. You can use lethal force to defend yourself when in your home or vehicle,
2. There is no "duty to retreat" from any place where you are legally entitled to be, and,
3. Those using force authorized by law cannot be prosecuted for using such force, nor can they be sued by the criminals or family of same for having used such force.

To clarify how 1 and 2 work, the meaning of 1 is that you are allowed to interpret unlawful entry into your home or vehicle as a deadly threat justifying lethal force, and 2 means that you can respond to a deadly threat with lethal force without having to defend against charges that you did not make every attempt possible to flee. Nevertheless, getting ground up into the court system is something to be avoided and even with Castle Doctrine backing you up, it's always better to evade or de-escalate confrontation where possible.

Those were basically my points in the the part you quoted of mine. What i was trying to convey though, is that even though it clearly meets Texas and Florida self defense laws, it also clearly meets ALMOST every state's self defense laws because you were in risk of serious bodily injury and you couldn't retreat. So, even though you and I are lucky enough to live in "Stand Your Ground" and Castle Doctrine states keeping us immune from civil liability and prosecution in a clean shoot and also keeping us free from retreat, others aren't so lucky. But, even they would most likely be safe here because even with a duty to retreat, they could not since they were on the ground being kicked.

I agree with what you wrote 100%, just trying to clarify my end.

As for defense on the ground, very few are able to actually pull this off. I have a lot of hand to hand training and some Krav Maga. I'm 30 years old and in pretty good shape, but at the point of being on the ground, if I'm kicking up to defend myself, it'll be just to buy enough time to draw my weapon, personally!

[yoyomeng]

So does that mean we are sort of ... kind of ... maybe agreeing that people that aren't pretty well trained are screwed when being attacked while on the ground?

[9MMare]

So does that mean we are sort of ... kind of ... maybe agreeing that people that aren't pretty well trained are screwed when being attacked while on the ground?

Well, as I wrote in the 'confronted in your driveway' thread, I carry a gun to give myself an advantage if I am attacked and in fear for my life. Not to even the play field, to save myself, period.

If someone has me on the ground and can use their feet on me, even a woman....they can kill or cripple me. They can also stop. They have their choices...then I have mine.

[jonconsiglio]

I Agree, yoyomeng.

[9MMare]

Well, as I wrote in the 'confronted in your driveway' thread, I carry a gun to give myself an advantage if I am attacked and in fear for my life. Not to even the play field, to save myself, period.

If someone has me on the ground and can use their feet on me, even a woman....they can kill or cripple me. They can also stop. They have their choices...then I have mine.

As an aside...this thread has been very helpful.

I have never practiced drawing my gun from the positions and activity taking place in this scenario. I have drawn prone, that's about it. Now...how would I access and draw my gun if moving, down on the ground, and fending off blows/kicks? Something to practice and another reminder that I need additional SD skills.

Thanks.

[jonconsiglio]

I've had to do that in a couple different classes. One technique is to just role to your weak side enough to grab your gun.. Another option is just lift your hips to grab your gun as well. All stuff that certainly needs some practice.

[shockwave]

So does that mean we are sort of ... kind of ... maybe agreeing that people that aren't pretty well trained are screwed when being attacked while on the ground?

Never! You don't even need a lot of training if you're willing to "bring it." Here's a fun game to try with a friend: Clear out some space in a room. Hardwood floor, carpet, doesn't matter. Lie down on your back. Have your friend start by standing in front of you, by your feet. His or her job is to run around you and kick you in the head. Your job is to spin on your back and keep your feet in kicking position always pointed at your friend.

Once you have that down, start adding kicks. If he grabs one of your legs, kick with the other. Just a little bit of this should give you a good sense of how much resistance you can put up from a downed position.

[Shackleton]

I look at this from a L.E. perspective and one of the things I teach rookie officers during field training is to look at the "totality of the circumstances" when dealing with calls. I don't know what scenario jcabin is looking at but from the article I read this seems to be a clear cut case of justifiable deadly force, just because a man might be unarmed that does not mean he can't use deadly force against you, obviously.

Firstly, welcome to the forum! Also, I'm with Glock19fan everyone.
Seems to me like the victim was in fear of his life, and I don't blame him. Ok, so I'm a big guy, 6'1" 250 lbs, pretty strong, and I spent 8 years in martial arts. On the ground or not, being jumped is scary, and dealing with an intense attacker such as this, I would say that he was completely justified in shooting the BG, and I would have likely done the same.

[happydude]

You realize this is only justified because of the age of the two men and likely the disparity in health conditions.

I am 24, and if an unarmed 25 year old randomly attacked me and knocked me to the ground, I would have a real hard time proving that I was justified in shooting the person.

You can't just fall to the ground and claim self defense.

I have a friend who is a boxer. He's 23 , 5'6 and 125 lbs. I've seen him pummel guys almost twice his size, knocking them off their feet. He regularly curls 50 pound dumbells and can bench more than twice his weight. I'm pretty sure one good punch from this guy to the right spot would put out a person, maybe permanently. You're telling me that if this guy were to beat on you that you wouldn't be worried about getting killed, since he's probably a lot smaller than you?

[bsms]

...You're telling me that if this guy were to beat on you that you wouldn't be worried about getting killed, since he's probably a lot smaller than you?

Speaking for myself, your friend would almost certainly have clobbered me BEFORE I hit the ground! But the DA & jury would look at the total situation. After the damage done by a skilled boxer, if I was still needing to fight after hitting the ground, then pulling my 357 and shooting would probably be justified. OTOH, if I was just bowled over by the average guy on the street, then I could probably get to my feet again. If there were 2 or more attackers, then again it would help justify using a gun.

In the OP, there was one guy, a nut case who probably was not a skilled boxer. Without knowing the details, I'll assume the DA knew what he was doing in not pressing charges. When I've raised questions, it was to remind folks that it takes genuine, justified fear for your life to justify shooting - not just "I scare easy and he was scary". In a civil case I read about last week, the jury found the cop guilty because they said he used more force than a reasonable person would. So the cop was not guilty of criminal action (beyond a reasonable doubt) but guilty in a civil court, just as OJ got off on criminal charges but was found guilty on civil charges.

[borglyn]

If an attacker has me on the ground with only fists, I will shoot. I do not know what they can do if further armed. It will end there.

[CAJUN600]

well done

[RemMod597]

back in the days before I was carried, I was sucker punched in the throat, immediately removing my ability to get air.
Next thing I knew, he was body slamming me and had me on the ground in a tight choke hold, cutting off all my air.
This all happened in about 3 seconds time, if that. He was about 100 lbs heavier and I wasn't getting out from under him.
Fortunately I was able to reach a screwdriver and divert his attention to his eyes, thus getting him to release me.
The whole thing lasted maybe a minute, max, and was the most frightening experience of my life up to that time. I thought for sure it was my last day on Earth.
I swore I would never let myself get into a situation like that again, and that I would avoid if possible, but have an equalizer if I couldn't avoid.
Knock me down and beat me, you're gonna get shot. Period.
The older I get, the less I find myself able to keep up with the more agile members of the shadowy side of society.