good thinking and correct use of a CC weapon

This is a discussion on good thinking and correct use of a CC weapon within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Seattle Times- This is the story of the self defense shooting of a mentally ill arsonist who had previously served time for dousing his mother's ...

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Thread: good thinking and correct use of a CC weapon

  1. #1
    Member Array redfish443's Avatar
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    good thinking and correct use of a CC weapon

    Seattle Times-

    This is the story of the self defense shooting of a mentally ill arsonist who had previously served time for dousing his mother's day care center with gasoline and setting it on fire:

    A 25-year-old man who was fatally shot while attacking a stranger Saturday at Westlake Plaza (Seattle, WA.) had previously served time in prison for setting fire to a day-care center his mother operated out of her Phinney Ridge home.
    Daniel Culotti was shot shortly after 11 a.m. by a 52-year-old man he was assaulting in an unprovoked attack, according to Seattle police. The victim of the assault was carrying a handgun and had a concealed-weapons permit, police said.
    In July 2001, Culotti had attacked his mother, Melinda Culotti, inside the family's former residence on Palatine Avenue North near Woodland Park Zoo. He later returned and doused the floors inside the house with gasoline, setting the house on fire.

    For that, the man served nine months and was placed on probation. And he's been arrested three times since then for "violating the conditions of his release."



    On the last day in the life of this obviously dangerous man, he was randomly assaulting passers-by until he picked the wrong victim -- an older (African American) man who was legally carrying a gun:

    According to Seattle police, a woman called 911 at 11:08 a.m. Saturday to report that a man was acting erratically, yelling at passers-by and randomly assaulting strangers near Boren Avenue and Pine Street. Officers sent to the scene couldn't find the caller, the man or any victims, police spokeswoman Debra Brown said.
    Twenty-three minutes later, police dispatchers radioed that shots had been fired at Fifth Avenue and Pine Street, she said. Moments earlier, witnesses told police, a man in his 20s apparently attacked the 52-year-old man, punching and kicking him until he fell to the sidewalk. The older man pulled out a .357-caliber Ruger revolver and fired one round, striking the man in the abdomen.
    The older man "was not winning the fight" - the other man "just starts attacking him, he's on the ground and a shot is fired," Brown said, describing witnesses' accounts.

    What the armed man did was quite rational:

    Once you are on the ground, it is hard to run, and hard to protect yourself. The victim did what I think any rational person would have done: he drew his handgun and fired, killing Culotti.

    Not only do I agree, this case is one of the best arguments I have seen for concealed carry. The legal system and the police simply cannot keep society safe from dangerous psychotics. If a conviction for arson only gets them off the street for nine months, then I think it's reasonable to conclude that law abiding citizens are the only force that can possibly stop them.

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array SpencerB's Avatar
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    Good shoot, sounds justified to me. Who knows what would have happened to that 52 year old man had he not been carrying.

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    Member Array Jcabin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfish443 View Post
    What the armed man did was quite rational:

    Once you are on the ground, it is hard to run, and hard to protect yourself. The victim did what I think any rational person would have done: he drew his handgun and fired, killing Culotti.
    You realize this is only justified because of the age of the two men and likely the disparity in health conditions.

    I am 24, and if an unarmed 25 year old randomly attacked me and knocked me to the ground, I would have a real hard time proving that I was justified in shooting the person.

    You can't just fall to the ground and claim self defense.

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    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    Sounds like a shoot consistent with Washington Law. We are allowed to use deadly force to stop an immediate felony assault against our person.

    I am pleased it happened in Seattle (the most anti place around here), that victim had a valid CLP, he had a .357!, that he is a minority, and that he acted in such a professional way.

    When it was clear he was in serious danger, he stopped the threat.
    "a reminder that no law can replace personal responsibility" - Bill Clinton 2010.

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    Member Array Jcabin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nutz4utwo View Post
    Sounds like a shoot consistent with Washington Law. We are allowed to use deadly force to stop an immediate felony assault against our person.

    I am pleased it happened in Seattle (the most anti place around here), that victim had a valid CLP, he had a .357!, that he is a minority, and that he acted in such a professional way.

    When it was clear he was in serious danger, he stopped the threat.
    You guys seem to be missing the definition needed to justify lethal force. If someone punches me multiple times, it may be felony assault. That doesn't mean I'm in fear for my life and that I would be justified in shooting that person.

    This is scary, and people need to learn the law.

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    Senior Member Array DaveJay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    You guys seem to be missing the definition needed to justify lethal force. If someone punches me multiple times, it may be felony assault. That doesn't mean I'm in fear for my life and that I would be justified in shooting that person.

    This is scary, and people need to learn the law.
    Your comments interest me...because I think this is one pretty clear cut case...

    I read other people saying if someone violates their space they feel threathened and justified...and I disagree...

    But this man was being BEATEN...he had been knocked down...I don't know about you, but at that point I'm scared for my life...

    So, I'd like to hear a little more on why you feel this is scary...
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    Member Array Jcabin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveJay View Post
    Your comments interest me...because I think this is one pretty clear cut case...

    I read other people saying if someone violates their space they feel threathened and justified...and I disagree...

    But this man was being BEATEN...he had been knocked down...I don't know about you, but at that point I'm scared for my life...

    So, I'd like to hear a little more on why you feel this is scary...
    Read my above post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    You realize this is only justified because of the age of the two men and likely the disparity in health conditions.

    I am 24, and if an unarmed 25 year old randomly attacked me and knocked me to the ground, I would have a real hard time proving that I was justified in shooting the person.

    You can't just fall to the ground and claim self defense.

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    VIP Member Array SpencerB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcabin View Post
    You realize this is only justified because of the age of the two men and likely the disparity in health conditions.

    I am 24, and if an unarmed 25 year old randomly attacked me and knocked me to the ground, I would have a real hard time proving that I was justified in shooting the person.

    You can't just fall to the ground and claim self defense.
    So you are saying if you are 25 and a 24 year old man is punching you and kicking you, beating you while you are vulnerable on the ground you aren't in fear for your life? Age does not matter in this situation, the man was in fear for his life. So he acted in what I see as a very justified way. I would have done the same thing if someone was beating the snot out of me while I am on the ground. At that point I am in fear for my life.

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Sounds like Grady might of been in Seattle,age has nothing to do with disparity of force,you can be killed or permanently injured with one blow to the head,not to mention being knocked out and then being totally defenseless,there have been cases where individuals were stabbed and never even saw the knife until it was too late
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
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    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jcabin You realize this is only justified because of the age of the two men and likely the disparity in health conditions.
    What school is your Law degree from? Are you licensed to practice in the state of Washington?

    If I'm on the ground and the attacker is still beating and kicking me I think i could make a case for disparity of force. People have died from such beatings.

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    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Cool

    Florida State Statute says that deadly force may be used "if you or someone else is in emanate, immediate danger of death or great bodily harm."

    There are numerous incidents of people being beaten to death with the only weapons being hands and feet used against them. One good kick to the temple is all it takes. Yes you will have to articulate your actions to a grand jury but you will be alive to do so.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

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    Distinguished Member Array Der Alte's Avatar
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    The moral of the story for me personally - I'm 77 so don't fool with me. I wouldn't even have to be knocked down - I will protect myself and my wife. Of course if anyone attacked me my wife would probably kick their butt:)
    Its a shame that youth is wasted on the young.

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    Member Array Jcabin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    What school is your Law degree from? Are you licensed to practice in the state of Washington?

    If I'm on the ground and the attacker is still beating and kicking me I think i could make a case for disparity of force. People have died from such beatings.
    the school of common sense. apparently something that can be practiced in all the states... though some never took that class I see..

    If someone of similar weight and height were to knock you to the ground and start kicking you, what would you do?

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    Senior Member Array Moga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nutz4utwo View Post
    Sounds like a shoot consistent with Washington Law. We are allowed to use deadly force to stop an immediate felony assault against our person.
    This is also a provision of Georgia law. A forcible felony in progress is enough to introduce deadly force. How is the victim supposed to know if the attacker who is using his fists and feet as weapons may finish him off with a head stomp while he's on the ground? Wait and see if the guy puts his lights out for ever? No, not in the south. I think it's a good shoot, but more importantly, the DA up there does too.

    And there's a big difference between some one pushing you to the ground and some one actively beating another person with their fists and feet while that person is on the ground. Big difference.
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    Senior Member Array ntkb's Avatar
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    If you didn’t help create the situation, and out of the blue someone attacks you, in a state with the castle doctrine in place (it usually reads that you have the right to use up to and including the use of lethal force to defend yourself) you don’t have to wait till you are beaten into a state of unconsciousness to deem in serious enough to shoot the attacker.

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