Hospital Scenario

This is a discussion on Hospital Scenario within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I saw this on Discovery channel last night and thought it made a good scenario to post here. It actually happened in Utah (where I'm ...

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Thread: Hospital Scenario

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    Member Array charlie1826's Avatar
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    Hospital Scenario

    I saw this on Discovery channel last night and thought it made a good scenario to post here. It actually happened in Utah (where I'm from) but it was quite a few years ago; I can look it all up and try to find old news articles if anyone is interested.
    A woman goes into labor and goes to the hospital. A little while later a man enters the hospital with a shotgun in his hands. He is trying to find the doctor that had tied his wife's tubes after she had given birth to their eighth child. He wants to mess up the doctor that messed up his wife; apparently his wife didn't want more kids and authorized the surgery but he still wanted kids so instead of talking to his wife he decided to hunt down this doctor.
    At some point he ends up behind the hospital with two nurses and kills one after she tries to take his shotgun (he also had a handgun). That was about the same time the police arrived on scene, so the BG and the other nurse went back inside. They ended up in the same room as the orginal woman that had come to the hospital in labor.
    He talks to the police for a little bit and then he points his shotgun right at the pregnant woman's stomach and says that he will shoot the unborn baby if they don't bring him the doctor he is looking for. He doesn't end up shooting her and they move to another area of the hospital where he ends up surrendering later.
    So for the purposes of our discussion; you are the pregnant woman's husband or the pregnant woman herself, I'll let you pick. As far as whether or not you are armed let's go with everyone's states laws; where I'm at I haven't found anything saying I can't carry in hospitals yet but I'm still double checking. Are there any federal laws on this?
    As some of you know my wife is currently pregnant so this one hit me pretty hard. I know what my answer to this scenario is but I want to hear from everyone else.

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    As for state law in SC, NO hospital carry. As for the scenario presented, as crazy as it would make me, this is obviously a situation handled best by the LEO's/professionals. Now, if by chance, I had forgotten my weapon was on me when I entered the hospital, and was in the room with my wife when the BG came in the room, then I am afraid I would have to wait for opportunity to defend my wife and myself, providing I wasn't aware he was heading in my direction. If I was aware of his approach, then my preparations would have been made prior to his entering the room. My advantage of surprise would be his disadvantage. I'm afraid due to my bad memory (forgetting to disarm upon entering the hospital), after everything was said and done, I would have to be judged by 12 (my peers) while he was being carried by 6. Either he or myself would not have made it out of the hospital using available oxygen in the air.
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

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    Member Array Boreal21's Avatar
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    Our local hospital is posted, but in Utah the signs mean nothing. I'm a volunteer EMT and I don't have any control over when that pager goes off. If it's before I've gotten ready for bed, chances are I'm armed and I'm not going to take the time to disarm in a life/death situation. So, I've been to our hospital many times while carrying.

    In the scenario I would most likely be armed. If I was aware of the fact that he's already killed one person, you can bet I would have gun drawn at the ready long before he ever enters my wife's room. When/if he does, there will be no hesitation.

    Boom.

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    cmb
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    I have always wanted to be a pregnant woman! Not sure I can conceal in a gown, guess I'd better be the husband. It seems I would be in close proximity, wait for the appropriate opportunity and take the shot. Hospital carry is legal here! I have always felt and I frequent hospitals visiting patients a lot, that they are very soft targets... htere are also many emotional people, drugs, addicts, I think they are more dangerous than many beleive...

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    Explain to the dummy that no surgical procedure is guaranteed. Then head for the snack machine.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmb View Post
    I have always wanted to be a pregnant woman! Not sure I can conceal in a gown, guess I'd better be the husband. It seems I would be in close proximity, wait for the appropriate opportunity and take the shot. Hospital carry is legal here! I have always felt and I frequent hospitals visiting patients a lot, that they are very soft targets... htere are also many emotional people, drugs, addicts, I think they are more dangerous than many beleive...
    Caution...Be very, very careful on this one!

    Question #08: What's the deal with the new law about weapons on the grounds on/around a hospital or mental health facility?

    Answer 08:

    CAN YOU CARRY AT A HOSPITAL?
    © 2006 by Jon H. Gutmacher

    Florida Statute § 394.458 states “except as authorized by law” it is a third degree felony (yeah – felony!) for any person to bring, carry, possess, or transport a “firearm or other dangerous weapon” upon the grounds of any “hospital (or mental health facility) providing mental health services”. Here’s the actual wording: (1) (a) Except as authorized by law or as specifically authorized by the person in charge of each hospital providing mental health services under this part, it is unlawful to introduce into or upon the grounds of such hospital, or to take or attempt to take or send therefrom, any of the following articles, which are hereby declared to be contraband for the purposes of this section:

    Any intoxicating beverage or beverage . . . .
    Any controlled substance as defined in chapter 893; or
    Any firearms or deadly weapon”.
    I just handled an arrest involving this statute. I raised the defense that the phrase “except as authorized by law” meant just that – and that securely encased weapons in vehicles on hospital grounds were therefore legal, pursuant to Florida Statute 790.25, and that persons having a Concealed Weapons Permit were also authorized because Florida Statute 790.06(12) lists all the places you can’t carry pursuant to your permit – and a hospital or mental health facility isn’t one of them. Thus you’re obviously “authorized by law”.

    Now, the State Attorney agreed with me in the case I was handling – and dropped the prosecution. However, there is no binding appellate decision on this issue, and therefore, no guarantee you couldn’t get arrested, and become the next “test case”. Just because I’m sure my interpretation is correct doesn’t mean that the rest of the world will. Likewise, the “law according to Gutmacher” isn’t quite the same thing as an Opinion by an appellate court which is binding across the State. So -- maybe some caution isn’t such a bad idea?

    I therefore would suggest that carrying inside a hospital or mental health facility pursuant to your CWP should be reserved for very special instances. Likewise, if any one knows you’re carrying, and tells the police or a security guard - I would suggest you be more than accommodating in offering to leave immediately if they feel you’re illegal, or just don’t want you there. Remember -- even if my interpretation is correct -- they still have the right to tell you to leave under trespass laws, no matter what the actual law is. So just get the heck out while you have the chance. If you get into any type of situation where you’re actually taken into custody, politely suggest to the officers that because you have a CWP, you’re not acting illegally. They’ll probably ignore you – but who knows? Can’t hurt!

    Anyway, that’s my spin on this statute. Keep safe.
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  8. #7
    Member Array eggs's Avatar
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    I recently visited family in the ER at a hospital in Columbus
    Talk about tight security, They had a guard at the door and you had to stop at the desk and let them search your bags, empty your pockets and walk thru a metal detector BEFORE you stepped foot into the ER waiting room. and there were signs EVERYWHERE about the list of phrohibited items. No firearms, no knives of any shape or size, no OC, nothing!!.
    So i carried a ball point pen with a nice strong housing, and next time (hopefully there won't be) i'm talk a walking cane,

    **sorry for the thread jack **
    I carry a gun to protect myself & the people I love from the Monsters that roam this earth.

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    This is a delicate matter and I believe it's best handled by authorities (if possible) given the situation. If I understand the scenario correctly, you didn't really tell us if law enforcement was already on the scene or if the scenario is intended to imply what you would do or what would your reaction be if you were there and had to act as soon as the BG draws on your wife so if I deviate from the intended scenario, I apologize upfront because it's not my intention.

    You could make matters worse by brandishing. Unless you can hide and snipe his hind-end, you can't out draw a drawn gun. In KY, to my understanding (& I could be wrong), you aren't supposed to have a firearm on a hospital's premises but if you do then you haven't really broken a law but you must leave if asked. If you were to decide to take the risk and draw your weapon and take a shot then given that he's already aiming at your wife, you had better have perfect shot placement and take out his central nervous system via a shot in the Medulla Oblongata. If you don't take out the central nervous system then the BG could still shoot and kill your wife irrespective of him being conscience or not. You could kill the BG but what good would it do if by doing so, he pulled the trigger out of a reflex and killed your wife? Also, could you live with yourself if you accidentally shot a nearby nurse or another patient? If he already has your wife in his possession and already drawn then he has the upper hand and the cards are stacked heavily in his favor. The safest way, IMO, is to have a negotiator talk to this man and try to talk him out of this hostage situation - that is what they are there for and they have training in matters like this, etc.

    One thing I would like to add before I wrap this up; If you were going to take some kind of action, don't get into the mindset and think that you would have to do something with a gun. If you, for example, left your gun out in the car for whatever reason then get your trusty EDC tactical knife out and take care of business. When I first read this scenario, I had a movie scene in my mind where the GG takes out his tactical knife and throws it with perfect aim and kills the BG. This is Hollywood thinking for the most part b/c I know I don't have the skills to pull such a maneuver off but that's not to say that you couldn't use a knife contingent upon the circumstances, etc.

    That's my .02.

    Grace & Peace,

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    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
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    No carry in hospitals here in Nebraska.

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    You have got to stop watching the Discovery channel!

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    Most hospital security would, and are prepared, to shoot that person quickly and protect the patients and staff.

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    in Texas you can carry as long as the hospital doesnt have a legal posting somewhere but I cant see a cop, DA, judge or jury ever convicting someone if.....lets say you're in the ER unarmed at a properly posted facility...this guy bust in, you go get your piece out of the car and come back in and then are able to take the guy out without injuring any innocent person involved.
    Im not saying it wouldnt happen and you would face charges but I highly doubt it. It would be a disaster for the city officials and all involved once the news caught wind that they are charging a man/woman who took out a raged gunman threatening to kill an unborn child with a shotgun.
    All that being said i also would have to assume that the odds of everything falling into place for all such events to unfold in that manner with a positive outcome are miniscule.
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    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    Glocklobster, you seem to have a view of security guards that says everyone of them is competent and highly skilled enough to take out a mass shooter, I can tell you from personal expirience that even though I am a trained (and qualified by Indiana Law Enforcement Academy/IDPA standards) to carry and operate a firearm, I do not feel that my fellow guards/officers including myself would be competent enough to function as a unit to take down the shooter. For the most part, we work alone and do not drill in teams the way that LEO's do, and we as a group, generally are paid minimum wage or somewhere within 2-3 dollars above minimum wage and many of them would have a serious case of the "I am not paid well enough to handle this" syndrome. Trust me when I say the best defense is the one that you yourself can competently enact. However in Indiana, we are allowed to carry in hospitals, and most of our hospital security staff's are LEO's or trained to the same degree I was. That being said, a guard or officer on his own, would quite possibly be able to handle his or her self, but working in a group, for the most part, don't hold your breath. No guarantees.
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

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    Member Array charlie1826's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockLobster View Post
    Most hospital security would, and are prepared, to shoot that person quickly and protect the patients and staff.
    To piggyback on INccwchris's response, this scenario happened more than ten years ago. The story didn't mention anything about hospital security that I recall so I'm not sure if they had any or how well trained and armed they would have been. I could be wrong, all I know is what was told on the show.

  16. #15
    cmb
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    retsupt is again the man! I always felt that since it was not listed as stated it was legal (except VA Hospitals, I assumed since they were federal, though I have never seen anything specific), pretty much just as the case stated by Mr. Gutmacher. I always learn something and will adjust accordingly. Thanks for the info!

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