Advancing with a knife
This is a discussion on Advancing with a knife within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In that situation quickly do what you have to to stop the threat....
June 24th, 2006 01:46 AM
In that situation quickly do what you have to to stop the threat.
George Washington: "A free people ought to be armed."
June 24th, 2006 02:21 AM
Let me cut to the chase and explain in more graphic detail this scenario for others edifications.
I have trained people in defensive knife for over a dozen years professionally. That includes three years at S+W's training academy as their defensive edged weapons instructor to LE [ 3 day courses ] and private citizens [ one day course ].
At 8 feet, you can be cut and stabbed a dozen times by one who doesn't know what he is doing with a knife before you can get to the gun, if you ever do.
In that time, you will have suffered so much damage that either:
1. You fall down and shortly die from the injuries sustained before you ever get to the gun from the slashes and stabs all over your body
2. You take so many hits trying to get to the gun that you stop trying and you are only trying to stay alive with both arms and hands, and forget you have a gun.
3. You have good H2H defensive edged weapons training [ not the mcdojo type you get with belts over the years ], and can stop his attack, taking a few peripheral cuts by knowing how to defend initially and stay up and running long enough to take control of him through some very effective and immediately damaging techniques that take him out.
In all the years training the LEO's and citizens, not one would ever get to the gun and would have suffered fatal injuries in trying to do just that with the trainers.
Now, take a jail bird who has experience training with a blade behind the walls who knows where to take you out properly and with no mercy. You'll go down faster than you can blink an eye. He'll be targeting the neck, stomach, armpits with stabbing blows, and he'll be on you like a gorilla, keeping you pinned to yourself so any effort to get to a weapon yourself is only going to give him more time to keep stabbing you.
It's ugly, it's nasty business, and to think someone who is presenting a knife at 8 feet and moving on you can be taken out in time to survive by your just defending with one hand/arm while going for the gun is going to get you killed.
You MAY end up pumping a few into him, but he has killed you nonetheless. You'd better have knowledge and training to protect the bodies core, get out of his kill zone [ and I don't mean run off or move laterally as he'll just stay with you and keep giving killing blows while being all over you ] but actually understanding how to use a startle response to protect and get those blows to stop.
You'll have to know how to tie him up with the blade arm quickly, make it a struggle and no longer a fight immediately or it's going to end in the above happening.
Thats the way it is, realisitic training has proven there is no other way to think you'll survive that encounter from that distance any other way.
Here's a link to think about this very subject:
The mind is the limiting factor
Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor
June 24th, 2006 05:15 PM
Still time to draw.
If he is walking toward you, you hold up your off hand, and you just tell him, OK I am going to give you my money just don't hurt me, all the while you are backing away, turning to hide your strong hand draw. Pull your weapon and unless he backs away then, you pull the trigger, until he goes down bugs out or otherwise ceases to be a danger. If he rushes you before you draw then you are in trouble, but on average most folks aren't going to be able to fend off a knife welding opponent in H2H. I feel that I can handle myself pretty well but I would still break and run while drawing and hope I can get out my weapon and fend him off then. I had a great uncle who was a bit on the rough side. He always told me (and he knew from personal experience) that if someone who really wanted to hurt you pulled a weapon then you went to a gun, or went away from a knife. Made sense to me at the time, and makes even more sense to me now.
There are only 2 people I trust in this world and you ain't one of'em!
June 24th, 2006 05:38 PM
In the scenario as proposed, it seems you have already successfully got your gun out. In this case, he would get no warnings. When the gun comes out, he will start receiving receiving lead until he is no longer a threat to me or anyone else. That being said, I doubt you would be able to clear leather before he had done just as many others have said, cut you pretty badly. Your mistake was letting the guy get that close to you without starting your response and as AzQkr has said, you're gonna be dead regardless of whether you wound/kill him or not.
If he has a knife in his hand and coming towards me from any distance with the threat of doing me harm, he's going to be my target when he get's within my space and 30 feet would be the closest before I started acting. I am very confident in my ability to act quickly and be "on target" with a gun; I have little confidence in my ability to fight someone with a knife, either empty handed or with a knife myself.
Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.
June 24th, 2006 10:42 PM
You're in serious deep doodoango at this point, so, assuming gun is already drawn
BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG
"Drop the knife!!"
If my gun was holstered, I would be trying to find away to buy the second or so I need to clear leather
AzQkr brings up some very real and valid points. You have NO TIME to clear leather if the guy is advancing on you with the intent to cut you.
The one thing in your favor though is that the primary intent may be to rob, not assasinate, or you would not have any warning at all. Also, he most likely believes you to be unarmed. So, there is a reactionary gap for your assailant too.
That said, you don't really know what the intentions are. And, lets say we[re normal people and not ninja assassin versed in 40 different ways to disarm a trio of knife wielding pirates armed with nothing more than a Q-tip.
So, you need to get to your gun. Because if the guys intention is to hurt you, and you are not versed in the ways of the Q-tip as mentioned above, it is your only chance.
Shout, move, fake a heart attack (seem to remember reading a recent story here where that actually worked!!), toss the wallet, keys whatever, but you better be clear of leather before they hit the ground (I keep all that stuff in left hand pockets). Do whatever you have to do to distract and get that second or two. Because he's gonna get you anyway, so you might as well do something.
June 28th, 2006 05:21 PM
In the basic pistol/ccw class (NRA course), we teach here, we do the run away and shoot drill...does any remember it, or seen it...you have a unarmed person stand with his hand on the shooters back. the shooter has his firearm in the low ready position, facing a backstop, with a tombstone or human out line target in front of him. when the unarmed runner takes his hand off the shooters back, he takes off running directly away from the shooter, (away and perpendicular to the target, in a safe direction). When the shooter feels the runner's hand leave the back, he is instructed to put two rounds into the COM of the target. When the runner hears the first shot, he stops.....
This gives a good idea of how far someone can get before you can get your gun up and fire to ACCURATE shots. remember, this is from a low ready position, no holstered.
easy 10-15 feet, with me running! and that isn't saying much.
+1 for shoot shoot shoot.
--people ask why I carry, and I show them this picture. I think it says it all.--
NRA Certified Instructor--many disciplines
June 28th, 2006 07:04 PM
8's not far...
Too many possibilities; "Shooting people Sucks... Bad..! I suspect though that around most parts they'd call 'em Something like "Dead Man Walkin'-N-Fallin'..!" He's seen your handgun & hasn't broken stride; if he isn't already shot; your already Jabbed..!
Originally Posted by jhfox462
July 1st, 2006 01:44 AM
+1 Blue Lion!
Originally Posted by BlueLion
I remember having an instructor with a rubber knife tell me, "put your hand on your gun and as soon as you see me begin to move toward you, draw and shoot!" He was 25 feet away! Time after time he was on me before I could get my gun out of my holster!
We also were taught to increase distance!
July 5th, 2006 12:36 AM
I agree with attempting to increase distance, but I wouldn't run away. Turn your back and you don't have the opportunity to muster even an inept attempt at defending yourself from an attack. Expect the knife to pierce you as fast as you turn. Remember, if he is advancing, he already has the initiative. Give him something to devote his attention to, even for a second, like tossing your wallet or valuables on the ground between the two of you (and toss it to the side as well, in an attempt to divert his attention DOWN AND AWAY from you). Use what you have to better your chances of survival, which means gain the initiative and alter the balance of power.
July 5th, 2006 01:16 AM
Shoot his mangy carcass. Maybe Satan can straighten him out.
July 5th, 2006 08:12 PM
I would have a Key Defender at the alert on non dominant hand for those situations. Get a Key Defender in a weird color (purple / orange / bright blue) with keys attached on to it, and always carry it on your hand, ready to use it - people don't freak out when they see you carrying it because they actually think it is a key chain, not an OC dispenser. Go through an OC course if you plan on carrying some, so you actually know how to employ it – some people use it, get affected by it right away, and then get stumped by their assailants.
Link to Key Defender:
Also, consider having a hammer-less snubby in a coat pocket if you can’t legally carry OC in your jurisdiction. Have your hand on the snubby while you have it on your pocket - finger off the trigger until a threat materializes; shoot through pocket if you need to –, again, people won’t freak out because they won’t see your snubby (keep it on the pocket at all times).
July 7th, 2006 05:23 PM
While he's walking forward...I'm walking backward...trying to keep distance. I'd make sure he SAW that I had a cocked and locked 1911 on the belt. If he kept advancing...I would go for the Surefire on my belt weakhanded to try to blind him for a second to gain enough time to break leather.
If he still came at me...then the 1911 will do my talking.
July 7th, 2006 05:27 PM
of course...I wonder what he'd do if you broke out a knife yourself and went...what took you so long...I've been waiting ALL DAY for someone like you :-)
What was that movie with Tim Robbins and Martin Lawence...Martin attemted to carjack Tim Robbins and was taken...on a ride :-)
July 7th, 2006 06:43 PM
8 feet is to close. You may step backwards slowly drawing your
weapon at the same time, keep them 8 feet away, but any closer
you could be in trouble. I don't think you have a choice, he has
a weapon in his hand, i think you have every right to shoot.
I agree it also depends what state your in.
Its a very good question, but at 8 ft with a knife up down or around
you may be the dead one. I would not take a chance.
July 7th, 2006 07:05 PM
It's during the day, still going for the flashlight in an attempt to blind him?
Better have some unarmed skills, and not just some skills, but some very good skills with lots of practice against a knife wielding opponent at that range against a knife.
Train for the worst case scenarios, he rushs you when he sees you move to anything, flashlight, knife, gun, whatever you can come up with. If you only train for the fortuitous chance you can get to a weapon yourself, it's going to be one hell of an eye opener when it doesn't go that way on the street.
You may have the right to shoot [ in fact you probably do ], but that option may well play out differently on the street. Going for the gun I have is an option as I carry in a position where it can be out and firing in a blink, I'll likely still not go for it and let him rush me from 8 feet while I'm trying.
Too iffy at best in the FoF training we've done with students over the last 10 years or so.
The mind is the limiting factor
Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor
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