This is a discussion on Gunpoint in the driveway within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by bsms All he did was flash a gun? And he didn't pull it? Nod and continue to unload the car. He has ...
Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.
At this point, he has crossed the point of no return. Assuming he is still advancing towards me, there will be no "ordering" and flex cuffs are laughable at this point. 'nuff said.
"Just blame Sixto"
Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
Richard M Nixon
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”
Years ago, I had a Sgt who worked for me who grew up in east St Louis. His oldest brother had recently been paroled for killing a white guy - because he was white. Two of his brothers were in prison for armed robbery. Two others got away with armed robbery.
If someone has grown up in the rough part of town and is walking the streets with a gun, he won't think like I do. You put your hand on your hip around me, and I think you are putting your hand on your hip. For someone whose brothers have committed multiple crimes, when you move your hand to your hip and catch the edge of your shirt, you are getting ready to pull your gun and he knows it. And he has his where it is easily accessible.
Maybe you are like the instructor who taught the CCW class I took. He said he practices drawing his gun for 30-40 minutes a day in front of a mirror, and his wife is cool with it. Mine would divorce me. But let's assume you can pull a gun fast. Guess what - so can he. When you start your pull, he'll start his. Maybe you are faster, but you are still trading shots at 6 feet within a second of each other. Maybe you kill him. Maybe he kills you. And as the OP understands, he may have friends behind you.
You don't have the drop on him. You are already in the hole, trying to get back out with a gun. But you have set yourself up where the most likely outcome is shooting at close range. If one of his bullets nicks your femoral artery, you'll die on your parents driveway. Way to go!
Now lets assume you are Bill Jordan, and you pulled so fast the BG who didn't pull on you had no chance to do so. You order him to the ground. Maybe he runs off - let him. Shooting a guy in the back would be really stupid...but if you don't, he may be back in 2 minutes with a shotgun and friends. Maybe he complies. If you are me, and in a neighborhood near me where this scenario could plausibly play out, you are a middle-aged white guy with a Mexican lying at your feet in a Mexican-dominated neighborhood. Let's just say you are a LONG way from getting out of your hole! Four Mexicans drive by and see a white guy pointing a gun at a Mexican lying at his feet...does this sound like we are about to have a happy ending? And me with my 5-shot J-frame! Guess I should have bought a Glock...
Now let's assume you are lucky, and it all goes well. You tie up the guy like a trussed chicken, the cops arrive...and the woman across the street video'd the whole thing. The cops now have a tape of you pulling a gun on a guy, forcing him to the ground, tying him up and threatening his life. Once again, does this REALLY sound like it is going to have a happy ending?
Better to stay out of the hole to begin with. Assuming your parents won't move (my Mom wouldn't), time your visits for daylight. If you can't, case the house before parking. Do SOMETHING to prevent the scenario from starting - because once it does, you are surfing the wave & hoping you ride it instead of it riding you.
If you do get in the hole, you have to decide it you are willing to trade shots at close range with your family nearby waiting for any bullets that miss you (they came out at all the noise). And if the guy was a member of a gang, then when his family sues you in civil court, the judge probably won't allow that to be entered into evidence, since you didn't KNOW it at the time. While the case is in court, the gang decides their reputation is going into the gutter, so 8 of them break into your parents house, shoot your Dad, gang-rape your mother and then kill her. The video shows you pulled on a guy who hasn't pulled a weapon, and the majority of the jury in the civil case decide there is a 51% chance you were wrong, and award the BG & his family $1.2 million.
All of this assumes the DA doesn't play politics and haul you into court on a criminal charge, and you get to spend 8 years in jail.
Oh...and the profanity? I've met people who greet their FRIENDS that way!
Now, lets assume you don't pull a gun first. Maybe he walks off. That is a non-zero probability. If he really was planning on robbing or killing you, he would have pulled the gun, not flashed it.
But suppose he does pull the gun. Now you still aren't a lot worse off than before. He can shoot you a second or two before you shoot him, but you still have the option of trading shots at close range - just like you had before.
Some other options...to delay or gain distance. Toss him your wallet. Then move to put the car between you as you draw. Now you trade shots, but part of you is covered by the car. Or after tossing him your wallet, run perpendicular to him across the yard. I've never practiced shooting a running target, and I'd bet neither has he. Again, if you can get to the parked cars or a tree, you can turn around and engage from cover on a guy who assumes you do NOT have a gun - since guys with guns don't run away. Maybe you are unlucky and he shoots you in the head as you run...sucks to be you. But his odds of hitting you while you run are much less than if you are trading shots at a standstill from 6 feet or less. I met a truck driver once who turned and ran into the desert when 3 armed robbers got the drop on him. All 3 shot at him as he ran. He was hit a couple of times but made it to the cover of darkness. That was with 3 armed robbers who already had their guns drawn and who had killed a guy a few days earlier.
Just some thoughts. But if you want to quickdraw and go toe-to-toe in a stationary gun battle at close range...have a nut.
I didn't grow up in the nicest of cities either
If you were in fear for your life, you'd be legally justified in shooting. So why the detailed response? Bang.
Well, on 29 July, it will be legal to carry a concealed weapon without a permit in Arizona. Open carry is already legal, and so 'flashing' a weapon won't be illegal. Brandishing - taking it out and behaving in hostile manner - will still be...but flashing while using obscenity is NOT justification for killing. At the point where the OP is ordering the guy to his knees, the guy has done nothing illegal in Arizona. That doesn't mean you cannot draw - there was nothing illegal 30 years ago when 8 guys started to surround me - but you need to be able to convince the DA and a jury - including a civil jury, where it is majority vote and 51% confidence - that a reasonable man would be afraid for his life at that point.
Further, there is no guarantee your gun will make him do squat. That is one of the reasons I like my S&W Model 60 - with a 5 shot J-frame, I don't feel very compelling. When I have an 8 shot .45, I feel like the Boss. But maybe the bad guy - if he is a bad guy - won't feel intimidated. So what do you do when he doesn't obey? What do you do when his friends show up? What do you do when you try to tie him up, as some have suggested, and he takes your gun away because he did 4 years in prison and they practiced taking guns away from cops? What do you do when you are sued for threatening and tying up a law abiding citizen - which is what the guy would be in Arizona on 30 July, assuming no CCW permit?
That is why the emphasis needs to be on not getting into the hole to begin with. Once you are in it, the options start looking pretty grim. I don't want to be in west Tucson with my gun pointed at a Mexican when the cops show up...and hear me say I felt threatened because he looked like a bad person. That isn't going to have a happy ending.
Here is another possibility...maybe you will agree, or maybe you'll think it stinks...pull your gun and be prepared to shoot him but do not point it directly at him. Say softly, "Let's both just go our own way..." If he goes for his gun, you probably can raise your gun and shoot him. If he prefers to walk away, let him...then immediately call the cops.
Last edited by bsms; July 20th, 2010 at 03:33 PM. Reason: add another option to consider