Gunpoint in the driveway
This is a discussion on Gunpoint in the driveway within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As for ordering the perp down etc.....In the words of that great philosopher Tuco "When it's time to shoot.....Shoot, don't talk"
Well, on 29 July, ...
July 20th, 2010 02:42 PM
As for ordering the perp down etc.....In the words of that great philosopher Tuco "When it's time to shoot.....Shoot, don't talk"
Totally incorrect, in this situation what you call simple "flashing" would in fact be BRANDISHING...displaying of a weapon in a threatening or intimidating manor. Guy walks onto your property and BRANDISHES a weapon it is "game on".
Well, on 29 July, it will be legal to carry a concealed weapon without a permit in Arizona. Open carry is already legal, and so 'flashing' a weapon won't be illegal.
July 20th, 2010 02:50 PM
I agree with the idea of getting the jump on him and drawing down and giving him the opportunity to flee... tail firmly tucked. Then call 911. If he makes any movement besides showing you his back side getting smaller in the distance as he retreats, you do what is necessary to STOP THE THREAT. Then call 911. Dont try to "arrest" him, you most likely are not a police officer or federal agent. Convince the predator you are not prey, or TCB.
Friends don't let friends be MALL NINJAS.
I am just as nice as anyone lets me be and can be just as mean as anyone makes me. - Quoted from Terryger, New member to our forum.
July 20th, 2010 02:58 PM
Proverbs 27:12 says: “The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.”
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
July 20th, 2010 03:54 PM
He'd be sufferring from a fatal malfunction of the victim selection process.
I'd be on the phone with 911 only after the threat was dealt with. Dealing with his banger buds would be better than getting robbed/beat/shot/killed...
"If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."
July 20th, 2010 04:09 PM
I'm giving the nod to bsms for his posts. Whether his analysis is correct for your application or not is a moot point. The key takeaway is that whatever your problem is, a handgun may not be the optimal solution.
Too many people weigh in here with the idea that "bang-bang" and BG's dead and you go back inside to finish your brewskie and watch some TV. The shooting is the easy part, the difficulty begins after that. Remember that watch dealer who killed, what, 8 guys? He had to sell his business and move to another city because of his targets' homies showing up for payback.
You do what you have to do.
In the case situation posited by the OP, you don't really "have" to do anything. So how you play that out is an open question.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
July 20th, 2010 06:40 PM
Well while I am calling for 911, I would make enough noise for my dad to hear.
Originally Posted by ctsketch
He's got my back, and he's a damned good shot as well.
July 20th, 2010 06:55 PM
My first thought is to defend myself and my family
July 20th, 2010 08:49 PM
Even with concealed carry/open carry laws what he did is a threat, especially when he entered your property to do it. He doesn't expect you to be armed so you can catch him offguard by being ready and drawing, don't give him the chance to draw his gun. If he runs let him go obviously, if he goes for his gun counter the threat accordingly. No matter what happens call 911 ASAP as long as you can do it safely, if possible have someone else call so you aren't distracted in case there are more threats. I'm not for holding him there, I'm not a LEO and the legal issues there are going to be a huge challenge so its better to let him run away. If he comes back with his buddies, then the LEOs have already got a call on them and your SA is heightened and you will be inside and prepared. JMO
July 20th, 2010 09:35 PM
uh, yeah shockwave, he did do something to present a threat, threatning me verbally and brandishing a gun, hes getting shot if he dosent run away when i draw
"The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."
July 20th, 2010 10:57 PM
July 20th, 2010 11:02 PM
I'm sorry but that is yet again not how it works. You cannot display a weapon in a threatening manor unless in self defense and even then in a lot of states you can still be canned for pulling out your piece. Threatening someone with a weapon who has done nothing out of the way to cause you to be in fear of your life is illegal and is NOT how Arizona's law operates. Thank you.
Live in yellow or die in white.
July 20th, 2010 11:04 PM
Ummm...according to the OP, he didn't give any verbal threat, just an obscenity, followed by "he lifts his shirt and flashes a weapon in his waistband". Is it hostile? Maybe...but why didn't he DRAW his weapon? Hmmm? Lifting a shirttail is not brandishing.
Originally Posted by INccwchris
Here's a story told by the instructor of the CCW class I recently took. A guy is noticed by a security guard in a store at 1 AM acting erratic. The guard keeps an eye on him. When the cashier asks for payment, the guy lifts his shirt and pulls his .45. The guard pulls his Glock 40. Should the security guard shoot.
In this case, the guard - who was now instructing the class - noticed the guy was still pointing the 45 at the ground and had a vacant stare. After a moment, with the guard pulling the trigger part way, the guy stuck the 45 back in his pants on the other side and pulled out his wallet. The guard tackled him and held him for the cops. If the guard had fired, would it have been a good shooting? Yes. When a guy pulls a 45 from his pants in response to a request for payment, you don't have to wait until he shoots someone. But this guy was high as a kite. He was moving his gun to get to his wallet without a clue. So while the guard COULD have shot, he didn't.
With the OP scenario, the guy hasn't even pulled his gun or tried to - he just flashed the gun. I understand that to mean he revealed he had one, but didn't pull it. There is no mention of a gun in the guy's hands after the good guy pulls HIS gun. Revealing a gun isn't brandishing.
Also, my assumption from the OP scenario is that it is one of those streets like I see in west Tucson, with the houses fairly close to the road and cars lining the streets. I'm assuming this guy has NOT come 200 feet up a private drive. He may still be on the sidewalk where it crosses the drive.
My main point isn't that you cannot pull your gun, but that there are risks involved in that course of action as well. Further, I think the idea that you will order the guy to the ground and restrain him is...unlikely. If you are carrying, do you let someone order you to the ground and surrender your weapon?
Any answer that gets you out in one piece is pretty good at this point. If you REALLY want to do it right, you make a point of not getting into this scenario in the first place.
July 20th, 2010 11:17 PM
AZ Law on defensive display:
"13-421. Justification; defensive display of a firearm; definition
A. THE DEFENSIVE DISPLAY OF A FIREARM BY A PERSON AGAINST ANOTHER IS
JUSTIFIED WHEN AND TO THE EXTENT A REASONABLE PERSON WOULD BELIEVE THAT PHYSICAL FORCE IS IMMEDIATELY NECESSARY TO PROTECT HIMSELF AGAINST THE USE OR ATTEMPTED USE OF UNLAWFUL PHYSICAL FORCE OR DEADLY PHYSICAL FORCE.
B. THIS SECTION DOES NOT APPLY TO A PERSON WHO:
1. INTENTIONALLY PROVOKES ANOTHER PERSON TO USE OR ATTEMPT TO USE UNLAWFUL PHYSICAL FORCE.
2. USES A FIREARM DURING THE COMMISSION OF A SERIOUS OFFENSE AS DEFINED IN SECTION 13-706 OR VIOLENT CRIME AS DEFINED IN SECTION 13-901.03.
C. THIS SECTION DOES NOT REQUIRE THE DEFENSIVE DISPLAY OF A FIREARM BEFORE THE USE OF PHYSICAL FORCE OR THE THREAT OF PHYSICAL FORCE BY A PERSON WHO IS OTHERWISE JUSTIFIED IN THE USE OR THREATENED USE OF PHYSICAL FORCE.
D. FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS SECTION, "DEFENSIVE DISPLAY OF A FIREARM" INCLUDES:
1. VERBALLY INFORMING ANOTHER PERSON THAT THE PERSON POSSESSES OR HAS AVAILABLE A FIREARM.
2. EXPOSING OR DISPLAYING A FIREARM IN A MANNER THAT A REASONABLE PERSON WOULD UNDERSTAND WAS MEANT TO PROTECT THE PERSON AGAINST ANOTHER'S USE OR ATTEMPTED USE OF UNLAWFUL PHYSICAL FORCE OR DEADLY PHYSICAL FORCE.
3. PLACING THE PERSON'S HAND ON A FIREARM WHILE THE FIREARM IS CONTAINED IN A HOLSTER, POCKET, PURSE OR OTHER MEANS OF CONTAINMENT OR TRANSPORT."
However, flashing - as in revealing a gun - is not the same as defensive display. Since open carry is legal in Arizona, doing something that reveals you have a gun on your body is not brandishing unless it is intended to intimidate. I would expect the BG's lawyers, after reviewing the neighbor's video, to either deny he revealed a gun to the OP or to argue it was accidental - he was just scratching his tummy, etc. If he then drops his shirt and covers the gun - which might explain why he doesn't draw it in response to your draw - then exactly how is he threatening your life?
Maybe he is. The 8 guys who started to surround me 30 years ago didn't say a word...frankly, they didn't need to. They were not going to surround me and sing Kum-by-ah. Maybe that is the case in the OP scenario. But for those who plan to pull and shoot, or who plan to order the guy to the ground and restrain him...you'd better have something stronger in your defense than "I was scared". And the witnesses may tell a very different story, as would the video if a neighbor taped it.
There aren't right answers in these scenarios, just things to think about before you find yourself in them.
July 20th, 2010 11:27 PM
Well the dude hasn't demanded anything. Seems like he wanted to scar you off. Maybe you would be better off "running off" - and by that I mean to cover. I feel like if the guy had intended to kill you, he wouldn't have just lifted his shirt, he would have already drawn on you.
I'd be out of the way, and on the phone with my parents first, coz if they didn't answer I'd have to assume that there were BG's inside their house!!! THEN it could really get sticky....
I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them. -- John Wayne as John B. Books in "The Shootist"
July 20th, 2010 11:59 PM
I would bet that the flashing of the weapon would have been followed by some friendly directions to toss him your keys and billfold. A BG makes his living by taking from others AND NOT GETTING CAUGHT. Why would he pull his weapon and wave it above his head while yelling for you to give up your stuff? The old lady across the street would hear the commotion, see the gun, and call the PD as quickly as her rotary phone would spin. He is keeping the situation low key, if he isn't yelling, neither will you. He has established that there is a gun on his person without the need to show the rest of the world. The neighbors will think you are talking with a friend in the driveway. There are allot of eyes on a suburban street to wreck his plans. I would instantly assume I am being robbed and as another poster said "already in a hole". I would assume that he is not pillaging his own neighborhood where someone would know his face, so i would guess he has help in a car watching this whole thing happen and to make the get away if things sour. Wolves travel in packs, we call them street gangs.
I would ask him what he wants without going anywhere near the grip of my Glock.
I would try to put the car between me him and the street, assuming his help is in a car on the street (a good assumption I hope)
Whatever his command was I would respond with something stupid like "I'm all out" or "I cant find any".
If I was still face to face with him with no cover, he would get my wallet with $13 in it. I aint getting shot for pocket change.
If I found myself in a position that I would have a chance, I would tell him to leave unless he wants trouble. I would hope he would know what i meant by "trouble" he has already shown me a gun, those are BIG words from an unarmed man. Hopefully he would get the picture and walk off. If not, I would have cover to duck behind quickly and he would be screwed. I would never ever want to test my draw speed in a real life situation. I know from personal experience that when the juices get pumping, it can even be difficult to open a car door.
Mom and Dad would be staying at my house regardless of the outcome, even if they protest. The police would be watching the house for vengeful acts while they stay with me. My goal would be to get him out of the driveway with no gunfire!
Or he was an idiot who heard from my dad that I was a pistol guy and wanted to show his off. He would make his next move while I made mine. Face to face at 6' is not a position I want to be in in a gun fight. Even if I got the draw on him, the first shot may miss or even not effect him enough to stop me catching one of his.
My two cents.... nice scenario...
My GLOCK goes BANG every time!
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