Gunpoint in the driveway

This is a discussion on Gunpoint in the driveway within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 9MMare What other things might he do, besides put up his hands? Many things are possible. But if he doesnt draw his ...

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  1. #61
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    What other things might he do, besides put up his hands? Many things are possible. But if he doesnt draw his weapon and you've shot him, then in most states at least, you are going to face an uphill battle in court arent you?

    Not critisizing....as a woman, all he'd have to do is **lunge at me and he'd get shot, but I also have disparity of force on my side. However as long as he didnt move for his gun and made no other threatening moves (& hopefully was reversing direction)...I wouldnt shoot. Not sure I'd have legal grounds.


    **That was just one example.. Knowlege of Tueller Drill supports the fact that that endangers anyone, not just a woman and is separate from disparity of force.
    If he has a gun in his waist band and lunges at me, its assault with a deadly weapon, whether he draws or not (in most places). also he has a weapon, is trespassing and knows i'm armed. if he fights me it is most likely to disarm me (assault me on my property/property i'm legally occupying). I have reason to fear death or great bodily harm

    if he was unarmed and didn't know I was armed, then it would be a different case, or even if he's unarmed and knows i'm armed, its a different case.
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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post
    Maybe you are like the instructor who taught the CCW class I took. He said he practices drawing his gun for 30-40 minutes a day in front of a mirror, and his wife is cool with it. Mine would divorce me. But let's assume you can pull a gun fast. Guess what - so can he. When you start your pull, he'll start his. Maybe you are faster, but you are still trading shots at 6 feet within a second of each other. Maybe you kill him. Maybe he kills you. And as the OP understands, he may have friends behind you.

    You don't have the drop on him. You are already in the hole, trying to get back out with a gun. But you have set yourself up where the most likely outcome is shooting at close range. If one of his bullets nicks your femoral artery, you'll die on your parents driveway. Way to go!

    You do have the drop on him. If he thought you were packing, he wouldnt have chosen you and if he had, he'd have his drawn. As you move around your car or towards, cover, you should be able to beat him with a reasonable amount of training (altho I cannot define 'reasonable for each person).

    Now lets assume you are Bill Jordan, and you pulled so fast the BG who didn't pull on you had no chance to do so. You order him to the ground. Maybe he runs off - let him. Shooting a guy in the back would be really stupid...but if you don't, he may be back in 2 minutes with a shotgun and friends. Maybe he complies. If you are me, and in a neighborhood near me where this scenario could plausibly play out, you are a middle-aged white guy with a Mexican lying at your feet in a Mexican-dominated neighborhood. Let's just say you are a LONG way from getting out of your hole! Four Mexicans drive by and see a white guy pointing a gun at a Mexican lying at his feet...does this sound like we are about to have a happy ending? And me with my 5-shot J-frame! Guess I should have bought a Glock...

    Or now you will continue to be targeted by the gang as a soft-target. No way....I'm not going to assume it's gang-related, at least not where I live.




    Now, lets assume you don't pull a gun first. Maybe he walks off. That is a non-zero probability. If he really was planning on robbing or killing you, he would have pulled the gun, not flashed it.

    Then why did he just approach you at all? And show the gun? I'm having trouble thinking up any good reason.



    Some other options...to delay or gain distance. Toss him your wallet. Then move to put the car between you as you draw. Now you trade shots, but part of you is covered by the car. Or after tossing him your wallet, run perpendicular to him across the yard. I've never practiced shooting a running target, and I'd bet neither has he. Again, if you can get to the parked cars or a tree, you can turn around and engage from cover on a guy who assumes you do NOT have a gun - since guys with guns don't run away.

    I cant believe people believe that most criminals will fall for the tossed wallet anymore. No way would I bet my life on it. And while you are running and dodging bullets...he's free to go in and rob or kill your parents. You have left them defenseless.

    I'd be interested in knowing what circumstances would seem appropriate for you to draw your gun? I see more likelihood I'd need mine to defend my home....if you dont see yourself using it while carrying...why carry?
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  4. #63
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    As for ordering the perp down etc.....In the words of that great philosopher Tuco "When it's time to shoot.....Shoot, don't talk"



    Totally incorrect, in this situation what you call simple "flashing" would in fact be BRANDISHING...displaying of a weapon in a threatening or intimidating manor. Guy walks onto your property and BRANDISHES a weapon it is "game on".
    Agreed. And uninvited on my property. And the fact that disparity of force may play into it...any threatening male on my property uninvited can be reasonbly presumed a lethal threat or one who could do gross bodily harm.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  5. #64
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thegear234 View Post
    Excuse me but stationary my behind. Its called getting off the X for a reason. I KNOW what I would be doing (if I were to go to guns) and thats exactly as I have trained and that is to explode off the X while drawing my sidearm and he might not have trained at hitting a moving target but I know I have trained at hitting a target while moving (and I'm not to shabby if I do say so myself)
    Exactly and I mentioned it in my post...move. And I also practice shooting while moving....IDPA practice.

    I havent done any 'exploding' yet however,
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  6. #65
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbiesdad View Post
    Can you flash your gun on your own property, after a TRESSPASSER has flashed his gun at you?
    Why would I do that? It just gives him the knowlege I'm armed and the opportunity to draw his.

    If I draw & aim, then I have the upperhand and hopefully will discourage any further actions on his part...that he'll leave.

    I live in a rural area and could probably shoot without endangering others from several directions on my property. My concern is that in such a rural area....he wont be alone :-/
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #66
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    If he has a gun in his waist band and lunges at me, its assault with a deadly weapon, whether he draws or not (in most places). also he has a weapon, is trespassing and knows i'm armed. if he fights me it is most likely to disarm me (assault me on my property/property i'm legally occupying). I have reason to fear death or great bodily harm

    if he was unarmed and didn't know I was armed, then it would be a different case, or even if he's unarmed and knows i'm armed, its a different case.
    OK. I just wasnt sure if you meant that if he turned and fled, or just kept talking (without motioning towards his weapon) that you would still shoot.

    Thanks
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    There has been a slight inflection in the scenario due to editing, imo. In addition, one may choose to modify the latter part of the scenario as many have done. I'm not killing someone for flashing, it does not reach my personal standard for the use of lethal force. While you may shoot him and depending on local statutes and attitudes get by, I would not. Drawing, getting cover and going from there fine, shooting him based on what has transpired so for no. JMO

  9. #68
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    I think the BG would be dead before he hit the ground or finish his sentence. Next I would take cover along with the people with me and call 911. If there are BG inside the house there isn't much you can do until the cops are there. If there are BG inside they have the advantage due to having better cover and you do not know what if they armed with or how many there are If your lucky the jerk in the drive way was a loner.

  10. #69
    Senior Member Array Bubbiesdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    I find that funny because I never put profanity in my post in the first place. I put Asterisks in place of profanity, LOL....
    Moderators refer to that as "working around" profanity. Counts same as.
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  11. #70
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Then how does one indicate profanity to show attitude, emphasis, etc?

  12. #71
    Member Array bsms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    I'd be interested in knowing what circumstances would seem appropriate for you to draw your gun? I see more likelihood I'd need mine to defend my home....if you dont see yourself using it while carrying...why carry?
    I've given a case on this thread where I did pull a gun out. However, in the scenario presented, the guy flashed a gun but didn't draw...so he has a gun in his waistband covered with a shirt. He hasn't asked for money or anything else at this point. He may or may not be actually on your property - as I explained earlier, the scenario presented would allow him to be on the public sidewalk that crosses the drive.

    Here is what I do NOT carry for: to shoot someone for having a gun and acting like a jerk. It will take more than that to make me shoot someone.

    "Then why did he just approach you at all? And show the gun? I'm having trouble thinking up any good reason."

    In some neighborhoods, he could be showing he's a tough guy not to be messed with. Maybe he's like the guy in the store that I mentioned on this thread, who was so full of drugs that he PULLED his 45, held it for a moment, then stuck it back in his pants on the other side.

    "I cant believe people believe that most criminals will fall for the tossed wallet anymore."

    Well, I suppose he can stare at it a moment and then order me to pick it up, but if I did something like this, I'd use my right hand to toss/drop the wallet, and at the same time pull the gun with my left. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't - but no harm done either.

    "And while you are running and dodging bullets...he's free to go in and rob or kill your parents. You have left them defenseless."

    Nope. I said run for cover and pull and shoot.

    But here is what will NOT work well for you - quick draw to shoot. I don't care if you have a 44 mag, your shot cannot be counted on to stop him during the first 15-20 seconds of the fight. If you want to exchange shots at 6 feet, go ahead. If you are lucky, he'll wet himself and run. More likely, drawing your weapon gives him reason to draw his, and you trade shots and both take injuries that can kill you.

    "Exactly and I mentioned it in my post...move."

    Here we agree...most of my posts on this thread mention moving. Those who plan to order the BG to his knees probably are NOT thinking about moving, since pulling a gun puts them in control...except they are not. That is one of my main points - the BG gets to do something as well. In military combat planning, you consider and brief the most likely response and the most dangerous response, and then brainstorm how to deal with the most dangerous response.

    My opinion may be colored by how I imagine the scene. My grandparents house had a front yard perhaps 30 feet deep. If I pulled into their drive, my car would extend from the porch almost to the road. It would cover their sidewalk. That is how I imagine the OP...an older house in an aging neighborhood, lots of cars on the streets because there isn't room for them in the garage or drive. A guy walking along the sidewalk would have to detour to go around my car. He calls me an obscenity, flashes a gun, drops his shirt and...I shoot him? Not hardly. But that is my opinion, and each of us must decide for ourselves what constitutes sufficient threat. Just realize that your community will also insist on deciding if you had sufficient threat.
    Last edited by bsms; July 22nd, 2010 at 06:06 PM. Reason: spelling errors

  13. #72
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post
    I've given a case on this thread where I did pull a gun out. However, in the scenario presented, the guy flashed a gun but didn't draw...so he has a gun in his waistband covered with a shirt. He hasn't asked for money or anything else at this point. He may or may not be actually on your property - as I explained earlier, the scenario presented would allow him to be on the public sidewalk that crosses the drive.

    I respect your perspective however it makes little sense to me. I may live in a rural area now, but used to work and play in NYC...was a (unarmed) park ranger in Central Park.
    Why would he show you his gun and approach you? Both things are a real problem...if he wasnt yet on my property, I tell him not to enter it. It is not a remotely innocuous combination of actions.


    Here is what I do NOT carry for: to shoot someone for having a gun and acting like a jerk. It will take more than that to make me shoot someone.

    Has nothing to do with him being a jerk. It's not remotely as 'jerky' as what I've been confronted with as a park ranger or even driving on the highways. In my perspective he is an immediate threat....I see no reasonable excuses to approach a woman that way, except to intimidate or do harm.


    "Then why did he just approach you at all? And show the gun? I'm having trouble thinking up any good reason."

    In some neighborhoods, he could be showing he's a tough guy not to be messed with. Maybe he's like the guy in the store that I mentioned on this thread, who was so full of drugs that he PULLED his 45, held it for a moment, then stuck it back in his pants on the other side.

    Sorry, if he did that, I would likely have shot him. Consequence of drug use, carrying a gun, and had the *opportunity* to shoot me. I can only guess his *intent.* And I would have been in *jeopardy.* (in your example I forget if he was approaching your personal space, etc. If I saw a guy wander around, not focus on me, and do what he did, I wouldnt shoot)
    "I cant believe people believe that most criminals will fall for the tossed wallet anymore."

    Well, I suppose he can stare at it a moment and then order me to pick it up, but if I did something like this, I'd use my right hand to toss/drop the wallet, and at the same time pull the gun with my left. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't - but no harm done either.

    Or he may shoot you now for treating him like he's an idiot. Or for wasting his time. Most arent even stupid enough to take the time to stare at it (unless impaired). No harm done if it doesnt work? You may get shot @_@.

    "And while you are running and dodging bullets...he's free to go in and rob or kill your parents. You have left them defenseless."

    Nope. I said run for cover and pull and shoot.

    Fair enough.

    But here is what will NOT work well for you - quick draw to shoot. I don't care if you have a 44 mag, your shot cannot be counted on to stop him during the first 15-20 seconds of the fight. If you want to exchange shots at 6 feet, go ahead. If you are lucky, he'll wet himself and run. More likely, drawing your weapon gives him reason to draw his, and you trade shots and both take injuries that can kill you.

    Since his gun is not drawn, it is not what I consider a 'quick draw' situation. Not with reasonable practice (as I said in my first post). But it's always a risk. I see his approach and brandishing as a much larger threat.

    "Exactly and I mentioned it in my post...move."

    Here we agree...most of my posts on this thread mention moving. Those who plan to order the BG to his knees probably are NOT thinking about moving, since pulling a gun puts them in control...except they are not. That is one of my main points - the BG gets to do something as well. In military combat planning, you consider and brief the most likely response and the most dangerous response, and then brainstorm how to deal with the most dangerous response.

    As long as the threat is stopped by the appearance of my gun, I dont care what else he does. Leave, I hope.


    My opinion may be colored by how I imagine the scene. My grandparents house had a front yard perhaps 30 feet deep. If I pulled into their drive, my car would extend from the porch almost to the road. It would cover their sidewalk. That is how I imagine the OP...an older house in an aging neighborhood, lots of cars on the streets because there isn't room for them in the garage or drive. A guy walking along the sidewalk would have to detour to go around my car. He calls me an obscenity, flashes a gun, drops his shirt and...I shoot him? Not hardly. But that is my opinion, and each of us must decide for ourselves what constitutes sufficient threat. Just realize that your community will also insist on deciding if you had sufficient threat.

    Legally, a man approaching me on my property univited, with a gun drawn...I'd be fine (legally, not nec. mentally). And as I said, I wouldnt fire unless he drew his weapon or kept coming at me.



    Your scenario got rather specific...detour, nastiness, flashing....I think I'd know if I was the true focus of his attention. Maybe it would be less obvious to you or in that specific scenario.


    Again...it boggles my mind that a person delivering obscenities at me, approaching me, and flashing a gun could be safely presumed to be innocuous. Drawing my weapon enables me to better protect myself where there is a doubt.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  14. #73
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    As a general note, in this scenario, if the man didnt flash a gun, but approached me and uttered obscenties "on my property," I would draw OC instead. Even knowing it was possible he did have a weapon, any weapon.

    It would depend on my ability to retreat, get to cover, his overall demeanor indicating violence, etc. But I'd probably still opt for the pepper spray/retreat & call 911.

    He shows me a gun or knife...all bets are off. Drawn gun is, to me, the only sensible protection.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    "Yo Dude whats up?" as he lifts his shirt and flashes a weapon in his waistband. At this point you already draw as he flashes you and you order him down on his knees. You don't know if he has friends, or who he is, your parents are inside. you are alone outside, what do you do?
    Call 911 report a body in my parents drive way
    I would not have ordered him down on his knees. As soon as I drew I'd fire COM
    After the call to 911 I would call my lawyer. My response to LEO would be I was in fear for my life. My lawyer has told to me not to say anything further until he arrives.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  16. #75
    Member Array DarthMuffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carguy2244 View Post
    At the moment of the approach, the flash of the gun, and the "greeting", would you be in fear for your life?
    For fun, turn this scenario around. You're out for an evening walk and pass someone at the end of their driveway, maybe they're getting the paper or something. Just as you say hello a gust of wind pulls back your cover garment and exposes your firearm.

    If the stranger is armed could he be in fear of his life and fire? I don't think so.

    My response to the situation described would be to draw, and back away to cover. They would then get an order to "turn, run, get out of here." Any moves towards the weapon or failure to comply gets a response. Otherwise I call 911 when they're out of range.

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