Gunpoint in the driveway

This is a discussion on Gunpoint in the driveway within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by LongRider This is vastly different than the scenario presented in the OP. A gust of wind is far different than intentional lifting ...

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Thread: Gunpoint in the driveway

  1. #91
    Member Array DarthMuffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    This is vastly different than the scenario presented in the OP. A gust of wind is far different than intentional lifting your shirt to display a weapon. That is identical to what many robbers do in the commission of a robbery. One could easily bring hundreds if not thousands of store and bank clerks to testify that is exactly what the robber did when they were robbed. It is an intentional deliberate threat. Not a gust of wind. He has lifted his shirt you now have under a second before he plants a bullet in your body, unless you stop him.
    I agree with you that it is a different scenario, and a gust of wind would definitely not be brandishing. However, if the other guy doesn't realize it was a gust of wind I think it could be mistaken for a scenario similar to the originally presented one by the guy in his driveway, and that was my point. After he shoots me dead the story he gives police will sound exactly like the original one: "a strange man came walking up my driveway towards me (mistake #1) and greeted me while brandishing a weapon (mistake #2)!"

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  3. #92
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMuffin View Post
    I agree with you that it is a different scenario, and a gust of wind would definitely not be brandishing. However, if the other guy doesn't realize it was a gust of wind I think it could be mistaken for a scenario similar to the originally presented one by the guy in his driveway, and that was my point. After he shoots me dead the story he gives police will sound exactly like the original one: "a strange man came walking up my driveway towards me (mistake #1) and greeted me while brandishing a weapon (mistake #2)!"
    cept.....I would have felt the same gust of wind...and and intentionally raise of the shirt along with a profane greeting and approach is still VASTLY different from the scenario.
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  4. #93
    Member Array bomber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    You are driving to your parents home, you are arriving around... 10 PM. it is a residential area on the outskirts of a city so there are lots of other homes and lots of other cars parked about the street.

    You pull into their driveway, get out and because you are always checking your six you see someone walking up your parents driveway. As you turn to face them you keep your right hand(or w/e you gun side is) at your side and the stranger says

    "Yo Dude whats up?" as he lifts his shirt and flashes a weapon in his waistband. At this point you already draw as he flashes you and you order him down on his knees. You don't know if he has friends, or who he is, your parents are inside. you are alone outside, what do you do?

    kill him

  5. #94
    New Member Array Gungadin's Avatar
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    "condition red" does not mean "shoot."

    In the scenario I see the guy on my 6: condition orange, possible threat. When I face him, he talks like a member of a different social group and shows me he is armed. That's condition read, a threat is imminent; he CAN hurt me, but hasn't shown that he WILL. No shooting at this point. Also no draw, no ordering him to his knees. And it is NOT my property, it belongs to my parents. Yet my fear is reasonable and action is necessary. Because of my training, I have a plan already available. I angle my weak side toward him, raise that hand, place my strong hand (angled away) on my weapon and say in a command voice "stop right there! Don't do it!" I have drawn a mental line; if he continues forward he is ignoring a reasonable request, and increasing my danger, and I move and shoot. If he moves toward his gun, I move and shoot. If he stops, I tell him to go elsewhere. If he fails to do so, I move and draw to ready. At any time all he has to do to avoid trouble is move away, and I will keep shouting that until he does, or until he gives me reason to shoot (by movin g towards me again, or by reaching for a weapon). And if he turns his back and starts away, I will be watching his elbows very carefully. If they bend out, "hands to waist," I draw.
    This response increases in severity based on his actions. It is public, loud, and in gesture and sound tells him and any witnesses what is going on. If he crosses the line, he has first shown he has the ability to harm me and then shown aggression. That puts me in a necessary and justifiable position to fire. But if he doesn't cross the line, it wasn't NECESSary. And if it ain't necessary, it ain't justifiable, now is it?

  6. #95
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMuffin View Post
    I agree with you that it is a different scenario
    Entirely different. I see the point you are trying to make but it does not wash. My spidey sense does not go off with a gust of wind, the scenario the OP described would have set my spidey sense off, his reaching for his gun would have been the go sign for me to stop him. Granted I have brought some assuptions and interpretation into the OPs scenario.

    As I read it a, thug strutting towards me talking smack, lifting his shirt to reveal a gun Mexican carried, is about point two five seconds away from causing me serious harm. Been there done that. Any hesitation is going to cost me dearly at least thats what my scars indicate to me.

    In all my years it has been my experience that thugs do not reveal their gun unless they are intent on using it. Accidentally revealing a gun can cost them dearly. In our state about five years in the penitentiary. So they do not let gusts of wind expose their weapon. I can assure you that if you see their weapon, IT IS ON, it's not a drill. There will be no do overs. Your well being and maybe your life depend on the proper response.

    Obviously my response differs from those that would bend over, get on their knees and comply with his demands. Placing my life at the mercy of an amoral sociopath who has already expressed a willingness to kill me, is not something I am wired to do. I'd much rather die fighting than on my knees begging for mercy .

    Quote Originally Posted by Gungadin View Post
    "condition red" does not mean "shoot."
    If he crosses the line, he has first shown he has the ability to harm me and then shown aggression. That puts me in a necessary and justifiable position to fire. But if he doesn't cross the line, it wasn't NECESSary. And if it ain't necessary, it ain't justifiable, now is it?
    In Condition Red the commitment to use lethal force has been made. The color code is a statement of mental status or awareness not an code of actions. What you are describing as Red is actually Orange

    Per Jeff Cooper in Vol 13 #7 of his Commentaries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Cooper
    In White you are unprepared and unready to take lethal action. If you are attacked in White you will probably die unless your adversary is totally inept.

    In Yellow you bring yourself to the understanding that your life may be in danger and that you may have to do something about it.

    In Orange you have determined upon a specific adversary and are prepared to take action which may result in his death, but you are not in a lethal mode.

    In Red you are in a lethal mode and will shoot if circumstances warrant."
    In this scenario the perp has crossed the line. By his demeanor and actions he has made his intentions known. Established he has the ability to cause grievous harm and has taken substantial steps towards carrying out that threat ie walking towards me in a threatening manner and reaching for his gun. Lifting his shirt is an inherent part of drawing a Mexican carried gun.

    There is no need to wait until bullet holes appear in my chest, instead I need do all I can to stop that from happening

    The only thing in this scenario that could change is complete absolute unconditional submission. Laying on the ground at the sight of my gun. I will not be giving directions and will fire unless he has unconditionally surrendered before I can discharge a round. See above, hesitation is not an option, IMHO.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  7. #96
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Yellow....you are out at night

    Orange...suspicious person walks onto parent's property (which is a residence you are lawfully occupying and therefore castle doctrine is effect in some states)

    Red...He flashes a weapon
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  8. #97
    Member Array bsms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    ...In all my years it has been my experience that thugs do not reveal their gun unless they are intent on using it...

    ...Obviously my response differs from those that would bend over, get on their knees and comply with his demands. Placing my life at the mercy of an amoral sociopath who has already expressed a willingness to kill me...
    In the scenario presented, he lifted his shirt but did not draw. I live a fairly normal life, so I doubt I have your vast experience with street thugs drawing weapons on you, but it seems REASONABLE to me that someone who is planning on using a gun, draws it. If it is in his pants, you might just deck him if you have the size and ability to do so. Or pull a knife or gun of your own.

    So now you pull your shirt to access your weapon and you draw your weapon. He will undoubtedly see this as a threat and go for his. Maybe you get your gun out 0.75 seconds faster than his, but it won't much matter. You are now committed to trading shots at 6 feet. Good luck...you'll need it.

    I must have missed the posts where people suggested getting on their knees and begging for mercy.

    I don't have any scars from gun battles, but my mind tells me trading shots at close range is one of the worst possibilities I can accept. When you cannot win the game, change the game.

    Do something he doesn't expect. Throw the luggage in your hand at him. Sprint in fear for the other side of the car and drop to your knees...while pulling your gun. Engage from cover or concealment. If he sees you run to a spot where he still will have you trapped, do you think he's expecting you to pull a gun and shoot from cover?

    Heck, spitting in his face while taking a step towards him, drawing and shooting him point blank in the head would make more sense than shooting Matt Dillon style. Of course, witnesses would honestly testify that they saw you execute a guy just standing there, since that is what they would see. And if he has any friends, as the OP noted, you'd be in deep kimchi.

    But somehow I doubt he's going to lie "on the ground at the sight of my gun". And if you pull in that situation, you are already committed to shooting. If he has time to surrender, you've done it wrong. At very close quarters, if you aren't going to get some distance or cover first, your only chance is pull and shoot in one motion. And you had better aim for the head, because anywhere else will leave him 10+ seconds to ventilate YOUR body with return fire.

  9. #98
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    In the scenario presented, he lifted his shirt but did not draw. I live a fairly normal life, so I doubt I have your vast experience with street thugs drawing weapons on you, but it seems REASONABLE to me that someone who is planning on using a gun, draws it. If it is in his pants, you might just deck him if you have the size and ability to do so. Or pull a knife or gun of your own.
    Well thats the problem, where I grew up this type of gesture is a way of threatening someone with a weapons (usually to mug then) without drawing it and drawing attention to yourself
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  10. #99
    Member Array bsms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    Well thats the problem, where I grew up this type of gesture is a way of threatening someone with a weapons (usually to mug then) without drawing it and drawing attention to yourself
    Fair enough. I grew up on military bases, and then spent much of my adult life on them. I won't claim much experience in this scenario...but regardless of the level of the threat, I would want to move to cover if at all possible. A lot would depend on the actual setup, and a lot depends on body language. 30 years ago, when 8 guys moved to surround me at a remote hiking trail, no one said a word or displayed a weapon until I pulled my 22 out - but there was no mistaking their intentions. Lots to think about, which is the value of this forum to me.

  11. #100
    Member Array ZombieShoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post
    All he did was flash a gun? And he didn't pull it?

    Nod and continue to unload the car. He has established his 'power', but hasn't threatened you yet. If you go for your gun, he's likely to go for his and you'll be trading shots at 6 feet - a great way for both of you to die. And even if it goes well...if he's a gang member, you have probably just marked your parent's house for revenge. Just a thought.


    I can tell you that a person doesn't have to be in my driveway. They can be anywhere and walk up on me, flash his gun and say "yo what's up dude" and they are going to get a gun in their face. Maybe a brain slushie if they are unlucky.

    A stranger flashing his gun at you at night is not a conversation starter. It's a armed robbery.

  12. #101
    Member Array ZombieShoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Yes, other states have it, not sure which ones (all the laws are written a little differently).

    And some states have an even better one....if the police do not charge you, you cannot be civilly sued, period. Me...I like that one.
    Florida has that.

    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...20032#0776.032

    (1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force,


  13. #102
    Member Array ZombieShoot's Avatar
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    Oh and one other thing.....

    Since we are on a gun site we all, including me, talking about drawing and shooting the git, but given the scenario we could easily bum rush the guy and fight him physically.

    Then shoot him. :D

  14. #103
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post
    In the scenario presented, he lifted his shirt but did not draw. I live a fairly normal life, so I doubt I have your vast experience with street thugs drawing weapons on you, but it seems REASONABLE to me that someone who is planning on using a gun, draws it. If it is in his pants, you might just deck him if you have the size and ability to do so. Or pull a knife or gun of your own.

    So now you pull your shirt to access your weapon and you draw your weapon. He will undoubtedly see this as a threat and go for his. Maybe you get your gun out 0.75 seconds faster than his, but it won't much matter. You are now committed to trading shots at 6 feet. Good luck...you'll need it.

    Do something he doesn't expect. Throw the luggage in your hand at him. Sprint in fear for the other side of the car and drop to your knees...while pulling your gun. Engage from cover or concealment. If he sees you run to a spot where he still will have you trapped, do you think he's expecting you to pull a gun and shoot from cover?

    But somehow I doubt he's going to lie "on the ground at the sight of my gun". And if you pull in that situation, you are already committed to shooting. If he has time to surrender, you've done it wrong. At very close quarters, if you aren't going to get some distance or cover first, your only chance is pull and shoot in one motion. And you had better aim for the head, because anywhere else will leave him 10+ seconds to ventilate YOUR body with return fire.

    I cannot for the life of me understand your perspective, not even considering variations in location/upbringing.

    Approaching me, spouting swear words, and **showing me your gun** are a direct lethal threat that I cannot logically dismiss. Why else is he showing me a gun if he isnt prepared to use it if necessary? He many not draw it because it would draw attention to himself and his upcoming actions from neighbors, etc. Or because he underestimates the fact that a woman is unarmed and less of a danger to him.

    I absolutely would draw...and he wouldnt be expecting it and even if he was, I would be faster. HE is behind the curve, not me. I would be mentally committed to shooting. As you said, I'd have to be. However that doesnt mean I'd have to shoot. There is a difference. If I'm pointing my gun at him, he now has a choice...draw (& get shot) or retreat. I'm praying he retreats....but all my knowlege and training tells me to shoot if he reaches for that gun. Sucks sure, but better than being dead myself. I am aware of the risks to myself if he does manage to draw his weapon....I will be moving, putting the car or other between us...and praying....and continuing to shoot.

    As for distractions...srsly???? Why put myself at more risk? Let him carry the risks facing my drawn gun. I carry a gun SPECIFICALLY to have an advantage if I am ever attacked. Like I said, I wont shoot unless I have to but I'm not going to risk my life to save his.
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  15. #104
    Member Array bsms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    ...I absolutely would draw...and he wouldnt be expecting it and even if he was, I would be faster. HE is behind the curve, not me...

    As for distractions...srsly???? Why put myself at more risk?...
    As I've written before, you go to draw...and he does as well. What else would you expect? If you decide to draw against an armed man at close range, you are already committed to shooting. Bill Jordan recommended planning to aim for high chest because most people fired their first shot early, so you might at least hit him in the stomach. If you draw, you DO have to shoot to save yourself at that range against an armed man.

    So you are REALLY fast and draw faster - you are still trading shots at close range. That is DUMB. I was reading "No Second Place Winner" by Bill Jordan this afternoon (http://www.amazon.com/Second-Place-W...0357422&sr=8-1). Even Jordan didn't recommend quick draw at close range except as the last resort. You delay, distract, etc to gain space and cover if possible. Even if all you do is sprint sideways across the lawn (while drawing) and then turn and shoot, you are better off than drawing and slugging it out.

    And in a spot like this, you might as well plan on shooting him in the head...cuz at 6 feet you have a chance of hitting, and that would be the ONLY way to ensure he doesn't fill you with lead. If you have decided your life is in immediate danger justifying lethal force, take a step forward as you draw and in one motion shoot him in the head. "However that doesnt mean I'd have to shoot" is wrong. If there is any delay at this point to determine his reaction, you are setting yourself up to die.

    If it were me, I'd delay and try to put something between him & me, or some distance. You obviously will do as you think is best - but I do NOT want to trade shots unless it is the only way to protect my family.

  16. #105
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post
    As I've written before, you go to draw...and he does as well. What else would you expect? If you decide to draw against an armed man at close range, you are already committed to shooting. Bill Jordan recommended planning to aim for high chest because most people fired their first shot early, so you might at least hit him in the stomach. If you draw, you DO have to shoot to save yourself at that range against an armed man.

    So you are REALLY fast and draw faster - you are still trading shots at close range. That is DUMB. I was reading "No Second Place Winner" by Bill Jordan this afternoon (http://www.amazon.com/Second-Place-W...0357422&sr=8-1). Even Jordan didn't recommend quick draw at close range except as the last resort. You delay, distract, etc to gain space and cover if possible. Even if all you do is sprint sideways across the lawn (while drawing) and then turn and shoot, you are better off than drawing and slugging it out.

    And in a spot like this, you might as well plan on shooting him in the head...cuz at 6 feet you have a chance of hitting, and that would be the ONLY way to ensure he doesn't fill you with lead. If you have decided your life is in immediate danger justifying lethal force, take a step forward as you draw and in one motion shoot him in the head. "However that doesnt mean I'd have to shoot" is wrong. If there is any delay at this point to determine his reaction, you are setting yourself up to die.

    If it were me, I'd delay and try to put something between him & me, or some distance. You obviously will do as you think is best - but I do NOT want to trade shots unless it is the only way to protect my family.
    Like I said..that IS the committment I make if I draw. *I* believe surprise and my training give me the edge. He wouldnt approach me at all if he had any idea I was armed.

    Obviously I'm betting my life on it...and consider it a better bet than confronting an armed man with obvious hostile intent without it. (And I'd be moving either way, as stated).

    I also consider it dumber to let an armed, hostile man get a chance to draw that gun before I draw mine. He's wearing it for a reason which you seem to keep ignoring. Because he wants something that he knows you wont give him willingly. Force allows him to take stuff...a gun allows him to kill you for it.
    Fortune favors the bold.

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    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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