Will You Be Assaulted/killed in a Street Robbery? Poll

This is a discussion on Will You Be Assaulted/killed in a Street Robbery? Poll within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I think that Matty would have preferred that someone else be the guinea pig....

View Poll Results: Will you be assaulted or killed in a street robbery if you comply?

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  • Very small chance

    32 19.05%
  • Medium chance

    67 39.88%
  • Significant chance

    69 41.07%
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Thread: Will You Be Assaulted/killed in a Street Robbery? Poll

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I think that Matty would have preferred that someone else be the guinea pig.

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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Guts or not, there is a physical reality there....that outdrawing and shooting someone with a gun already pointed at you is unrealistic for the vast majority of gun carriers. I dont care how much you train, unless you are one of the (few) experts, you're not gonna make it. And most of the 'experts' say so. (You may not die or even get hit of course.) If anything, they recommend CQB instead.

    Not to mention that most carriers who are not battle hardened have no idea how they will physically and mentally react in that situation. And most will telegraph their intentions as well.
    I'm sure what may work for me will not work for a typical ccw holder who has not had H-2-H, combat shooting, and a lot of other training. And in the example I posted which happened about 4 days ago in Charlotte, N.C. where the Joe Blow CCW holder drew against the drop and shot his armed robber twice, I'm guessing he was more than likely an average citizen. I could be mistaken about that, but the article didn't give his prior skills any mention. In the Lance Thomas link, he was just an average citizen who trained on his own and practiced a lot. He drew against the drop and killed 5 men in four separate armed robbery attempts. All his attackers either had the drop on him or had their guns in their hands when they entered his shop. Lance was self taught. He was a determined man and he practiced a lot.

    Since I'm a former defensive tactics trainer, ground fighting trainer and weapon retention and disarming trainer and practice extensively for drawing against armed bad guys in dry fire, static live fire and force on force with air soft, I feel I have a lot more tools in my tool box to choose from, and what I am confident will work for me is not going to work for the average person. And I'm under no illusion I will even survive the encounter. I pretty much make that stipulation in my posts as well.

    However a heck of a lot of people think that they are automatically dead or at someone's mercy if an armed person approaches them. And that couldn't be further from the truth for those who train for such eventualities. And then again,r use of lethal force is reserved only to repel a lethal threat. That usually means the attacker is going to be armed with a knife, club or gun.

    Again, no matter what you do, if you haven't trained for it, you're fooling yourself if you expect to win. If someone has a gun pointed at you, and think you're gonna go hand to hand with the man with the gun in his hand and you don't have any training for such situations, you're just as likely to get shot as a person who merely stands there and tries to outdraw the man who has a gun in his hand. And regardless of how much training you have, if you are not committed to act instantaneously and without hesitation, you're likely to get shot as well.

    I wouldn't necessarily say CQB is a better strategy. It may be in many circumstances. And in many circumstance that is my preferred method of dealing with someone at contact distance. But CQB is more of an alternate strategy as opposed to the absolute better strategy. And if you aren't trained in CQB or weapon disarming, it's really not that great a thing to try. Best comply and hope for the best.

    If complying and hoping they show you mercy is the best strategy for most people, I certainly don't have a problem with that. For me, complying is way, way, way down on the list. I choose not to negotiate with crack heads and stick-up thugs.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Guts or not, there is a physical reality there....that outdrawing and shooting someone with a gun already pointed at you is unrealistic for the vast majority of gun carriers. I dont care how much you train, unless you are one of the (few) experts, you're not gonna make it. And most of the 'experts' say so. (You may not die or even get hit of course.) If anything, they recommend CQB instead.

    Not to mention that most carriers who are not battle hardened have no idea how they will physically and mentally react in that situation. And most will telegraph their intentions as well.
    I'm just going to throw this out there. In the infantry we are taught that when we get caught in a near ambush, you immediately assault through the ambush site. So when a group of BG's have automatic weapons, RPGs, IED's, ect... within 50 meters of you and the element of surprise, the immediate reaction needs to be overwhelming violent force back, which can tip momentum in your favor, and save the lives of those caught in the kill zone of the ambush. This seems very counter-intuitive, but believe me, even though the Taliban, Al Qaeda and the other groups know we do this, it still works for us, and we still do it.

    That is kind of an extreme example, but just goes to show, that just because the other guy should have you dead to rights, doesn't mean you need to let him collect that bill. There is a lot of physiology that can go into peoples reactions under extreme stress situations. Sure at contact distance some h-2-h (not really CQB, since that encompasses everything that can occur in a small space) may be best. Speed surprise and violence of action are what win the day though, and in a crappy encounter such as this, you need all 3 to avoid buying a piece of farmland.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

  5. #49
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I believe that, that is why these types of discussions are so difficult. With the myriad of training, experience, practice regimens, mental outlooks and other factors that are present in any large group, it is difficult to relate to the "package" that others bring to the discussion, in relation to ones own "package".

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    I wouldn't necessarily say CQB is a better strategy. It may be in many circumstances. And in many circumstance that is my preferred method of dealing with someone at contact distance. But CQB is more of an alternate strategy as opposed to the absolute better strategy. And if you aren't trained in CQB or weapon disarming, it's really not that great a thing to try. Best comply and hope for the best.
    Completely agreed. And that's why when I have the money, I plan to get training for h2h or CQB. Unfortunately that's not an option right now. I am fortunate that it is just $10 to practice with the IDPA club weekly.

    I bring it up because (of course it is a defensive 'gun' carry forum) the major focus of these threads seems to be use your gun....or dont. As is said, a gun is only one tool in the toolbox and isnt always the right one. If you focus too much on one, you may come up short in your other options.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Completely agreed. And that's why when I have the money, I plan to get training for h2h or CQB. Unfortunately that's not an option right now. I am fortunate that it is just $10 to practice with the IDPA club weekly.

    I bring it up because (of course it is a defensive 'gun' carry forum) the major focus of these threads seems to be use your gun....or dont. As is said, a gun is only one tool in the toolbox and isnt always the right one. If you focus too much on one, you may come up short in your other options.
    Don't discount that IDPA experience. Probably one of the best firearm training tools is to shoot competitively. It raises the stress level and puts you in a "crunch" type situation. And of course IDPA is geared exclusively towards realistic defensive situations where your skill and tactics serve you better than having a particular tricked out race gun as in so many other types of competition. The mere fact that you shoot IDPA puts you way above the average person who merely goes to a range on their own to punch paper and won't take any form of professional training.

    Quote Originally Posted by buckeyeLCPL View Post
    I'm just going to throw this out there. In the infantry we are taught that when we get caught in a near ambush, you immediately assault through the ambush site. So when a group of BG's have automatic weapons, RPGs, IED's, ect... within 50 meters of you and the element of surprise, the immediate reaction needs to be overwhelming violent force back, which can tip momentum in your favor, and save the lives of those caught in the kill zone of the ambush. This seems very counter-intuitive, but believe me, even though the Taliban, Al Qaeda and the other groups know we do this, it still works for us, and we still do it.

    That is kind of an extreme example, but just goes to show, that just because the other guy should have you dead to rights, doesn't mean you need to let him collect that bill. There is a lot of physiology that can go into peoples reactions under extreme stress situations. Sure at contact distance some h-2-h (not really CQB, since that encompasses everything that can occur in a small space) may be best. Speed surprise and violence of action are what win the day though, and in a crappy encounter such as this, you need all 3 to avoid buying a piece of farmland.
    Excellent post! Very well stated and applicable.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Back 40 View Post
    Bark'n
    Very well said, I couldn't agree more.
    ^^^^^^^UM',,,, YEAH^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Couldn't ad to that if I tried Bark'n!!!!
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  9. #53
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    Everybody has their own ideas of what is appropriate. Until you have a gun poked at your skull or your loved ones' skulls, all this supposed to do stuff is really moot. TV and movies make too much stuff seem possible for people when it isn't. Take a squirt gun to class one day and try it on your peers to see how effective these take aways and disarms actually are. I know martial arts from years of practice but would not hesitate to pull on the would be robber. Simple really... my gun is foolproof and fast. I only have to learn to draw and squeeze. I don't worry about your spacing, your attitude, or your training. My bullets go the same speed whether my shoulders ache or my knees crick. I don't advocate disarming or physical combat unless left with no other alternatives because it is not a dojo out there. It is for keeps. You get no do overs and no critiques on skill or techniques. Robbery attempts are usually ambushes and you don't get to stand face to face at the correct stance and space with prop guns and rubber knives. Please think about this before you spend your money to be the ultimate fighter. You are better off to spend your time learning to avoid danger and to be prepared with your chosen weapon than to use your hands. Use the weapon that gives you the best odds of coming out unharmed and alive.

  10. #54
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuc View Post
    Everybody has their own ideas of what is appropriate. Until you have a gun poked at your skull or your loved ones' skulls, all this supposed to do stuff is really moot. TV and movies make too much stuff seem possible for people when it isn't. Take a squirt gun to class one day and try it on your peers to see how effective these take aways and disarms actually are. I know martial arts from years of practice but would not hesitate to pull on the would be robber. Simple really... my gun is foolproof and fast. I only have to learn to draw and squeeze. I don't worry about your spacing, your attitude, or your training. My bullets go the same speed whether my shoulders ache or my knees crick. I don't advocate disarming or physical combat unless left with no other alternatives because it is not a dojo out there. It is for keeps. You get no do overs and no critiques on skill or techniques. Robbery attempts are usually ambushes and you don't get to stand face to face at the correct stance and space with prop guns and rubber knives. Please think about this before you spend your money to be the ultimate fighter. You are better off to spend your time learning to avoid danger and to be prepared with your chosen weapon than to use your hands. Use the weapon that gives you the best odds of coming out unharmed and alive.

    it's not about becoming a martial arts expert...there are specific techniques for gun retention and for disarming or blocking a drawn gun on you. In many cases, it is better than drawing against an already draw weapon. *Proximity over comes skill*...the already gun has a great advantage.

    It depends on how you interpret the aggressor. It may be better to give up your wallet, etc. It is the 'quick draw' attitude by many people that I think is unrealistic. I believe that if anyone can do that, it requires a true expert.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  11. #55
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Don't discount that IDPA experience. Probably one of the best firearm training tools is to shoot competitively. It raises the stress level and puts you in a "crunch" type situation. And of course IDPA is geared exclusively towards realistic defensive situations where your skill and tactics serve you better than having a particular tricked out race gun as in so many other types of competition. The mere fact that you shoot IDPA puts you way above the average person who merely goes to a range on their own to punch paper and won't take any form of professional training.


    :
    Thank you. I really enjoy it and everyone helps me. Someday I'll probably compete just for the additional stress factors.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  12. #56
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    I voted wrong. The correct answer is significant chance because as buckeyLPCL said first, robbery is, by definition, assault. I focussed on the "get killed" part of the question - an attention getter. My bad.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  13. #57
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    I voted "significant chance". Why? Well that's simple. Even if there really is a small chance you might be hurt/killed during a street robbery, the result is in itself significant and finite. You WILL die.

  14. #58
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    I'd have to go with two answers. There is a very small chance, but that chance seems very significant to me.

  15. #59
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    I'd say it's a significant chance, but I will work my hardest not to be the easy target for someone.

  16. #60
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    I answered medium chance... Meaning (to me), further assault... as I have already been "assaulted" (threatened with bodily injury). But likelyhood of further violence not very likely.

    My method of compliance will most likely be (if one on one) to drop a money clip at his feet, and draw if he goes for it or makes me pick it up.
    If more than one on one... I'd probably still toss money... to get away, get to cover, and perhaps to draw, if necessary.

    And, I noticed that Bark'n posted a link to the Lance Thomas video... And, while I agree that Lance had the proper mindset, trained himself well and executed superbly... in the end... the BG's won out.... they threatened to shoot his customers; and, as a result, he works from home, by appointment, or on the net, exclusively... He is now a recluse... The emotional cost has been high... and the psychological toll of being under siege for years has brought on symptoms of PTSD.

    Lance continued the good fight, perhaps too long... And is a hero of sorts for it.. but he also dramatically illustrates the toll it takes to stand on principal... the right to pursue his livelyhood in an area that was rife with crime was not, in the end, a good decision. And even he came to that realization, eventually and at great cost.

    In my mind, Lance staying in his original location, is akin to CCW permit holders walking through "the hood," itching to draw their gun... There are few here who would recommend such a course of action.
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