Would you have pulled your firearm? - Page 2

Would you have pulled your firearm?

This is a discussion on Would you have pulled your firearm? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Here's my feeling about horn blowing. The horn is a signal device used to warn other motorists of your presence should they fail to notice ...

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  1. #16
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    Here's my feeling about horn blowing.

    The horn is a signal device used to warn other motorists of your presence should they fail to notice you or misjudge the distance between the two vehicles which may likely cause a collision.

    Now granted a lot of people use their horn totally inappropriately. Hell most the time, idiots use their horns to get a friends attention simply so they can wave hello at them.

    If a horn is used in the appropriate manner which it was designed... which is to warn fellow motorists of your presence where they may not have seen you, or gotten too close, should be in no way construed as to be escalating a confrontation.

    You should not be required to automatically assume that just because you honk your horn to avoid a potential motor vehicle crash the other person is going to fly off the handle and act in an outrageous and immature way. If the other person is in such poor control of his behavior and emotions that he flies off the handle and forces you from the road and approaches you ranting and raving, and in a threatening way... he is the aggressor, and he is the one escalating the situation.

    As long as the person who is honking the horn is doing so with an appropriate use of the horn, which is to provide warning that the space is occupied and to reasonably avoid a collision, it is grossly irresponsible to say the person honking the horn was escalating a situation into violence. You can not possibly know in advance, (usually) that the other person has poor self control.

    In this case, it's hard to say what the woman's intention was when honking at the motorcyclist. I feel it is kind of a borderline situation. She took evasive driving measures and then honked her horn instead of honking the horn first, and then taking the evasive driving maneuver. In a sudden high stress, people often can perform intended steps of an action out of order.

    If a person who honks their horn is automatically going to be assumed to be escalating a situation where people feel justified in becoming enraged, aggressive and act out in an aggressive and threatening way, then horns should be removed from all vehicles. And I don't see that happening, because the law assumes when you operate a motor vehicle you are expected to maintain a certain amount of self control over your emotions.

    Again, if the woman who was honking her horn, was using her horn as a surrogate means to cussing another motorist out because she was mad at the other motorist, then yes... It could be seen as escalating a situation in which they would share some level of culpability in what ensues.

    However, on the other side of the coin, if she was honking her horn in response to another drivers careless actions in an attempt to warn them of their presence to avoid a collision then they should not be assumed to be escalating the situation. And in that case, you have to evaluate the stress the driver was in at the moment of suddenly and without warning be placed in a near collision situation. And in the case of whether she honked the horn before she swerved out of the way or immediately afterward needs to be understood to be part of a natural level of stress being placed on the person because of the suddenness of the incident.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."


  2. #17
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    She should have just let it go and not escalate the situation as SHE was in the wrong. Not seeing someone in your blind spot is no excuse. Then she blew the horn at him after almost taking his life???? She was wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong!!!!!!!!!!


    She is lucky he didnt call the police and reported her pulling a gun on him or she would have experienced a felony stop and went to jail.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    She should have just let it go and not escalate the situation as SHE was in the wrong. Not seeing someone in your blind spot is no excuse. Then she blew the horn at him after almost taking his life???? She was wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong!!!!!!!!!!


    She is lucky he didnt call the police and reported her pulling a gun on him or she would have experienced a felony stop and went to jail.
    I just don't see it that way not having all the facts. I think you are making an assumption based on facts not in evidence. What we have here is a spouses third party description of events in which even he wasn't present. I think you're kind of jumping the gun.

    I'm not saying you may ultimately correct. But based on the story, I don't think we can make that conclusions yet.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  4. #19
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    I just don't see it that way not having all the facts. I think you are making an assumption based on facts not in evidence. What we have here is a spouses third party description of events in which even he wasn't present. I think you're kind of jumping the gun.

    I'm not saying you may ultimately correct. But based on the story, I don't think we can make that conclusions yet.
    I rode a motorcycle for 20 years in the valley, i know how drivers are, and her waving her firearm at an unarmed individual? Felony.

  5. #20
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    "she then pulled her G26 from the glove and defensively displayed her firearm that was still holstered."

    I guess that's okay in AZ (your laws/rules), but it could get you jailed in FL. While it worked this time, the next time: I show him mine; he pulls his. Not good for a silly argument that no one knows if it would ever escalate to deadly threats if weapons weren't flashed about.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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  6. #21
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    What would I do? If I couldn't drive around the motorcycle, I'd leave my car in gear. I almost never have a cell phone, so out of luck there - if I did, I'd call 911 to document that someone was threatening me. Yes, someone forcing you to stop is a threat...safe bet he isn't about to invite her to church. If the guy looks like he's going to attack me, then it depends. If he is about to attack me with a club or something to break the window, I rev up the engine, pop the clutch and my 4000 lb vehicle hits his 500 lb bike as hard as I can arrange it...then I keep driving and do NOT stop for anyone but a cop.

    If I suspect he might go for a gun & shoot thru my window, I put my hand on my gun. I'm waiting for my concealed permit, so I'm open carry anyways - on my left hip, where other drivers can't see anything, but a cop (or nut screaming at my window) can see it easily anyways.

    But I rarely carry now (not a big open carry fan), and have made it thru over 35 years of driving without needing to pull a gun on someone. If someone wants to force me over, he's going to have to risk his life to do it. Someone trying to forcibly stop my car is already a serious threat, and my first defense is my car.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    I rode a motorcycle for 20 years in the valley, i know how drivers are, and her waving her firearm at an unarmed individual? Felony.
    I am glad you know how drivers are , perhaps you should be a traffic court judge since you are a clairvoyant and know exactly what happened without being there.
    Road rage people come in all sizes and vehicles. This incident sounds like two people were in the wrong by their actions.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    I am glad you know how drivers are , perhaps you should be a traffic court judge since you are a clairvoyant and know exactly what happened without being there.
    Road rage people come in all sizes and vehicles. This incident sounds like two people were in the wrong by their actions.
    Agreed. If you're going to carry a gun, you need a plan. One key aspect of such a plan is to seek always to avoid confrontations, and never be part of an escalation. Apologize even if you are in the right. Try to calm the other party down. Be self-deprecating - anything. Shouting and gesticulating over a traffic incident is stupid, and shows lack of self-control (and lack of a plan).

    This always reminds me of the old cowboy movies where the arrogant, young whippersnapper walks through the bat-wing doors of a saloon and calls the sheriff a coward in order to start a gunfight.

    If you don't want to be in a gunfight, don't get into shouting matches with others - even if that means swallowing your pride or absorbing verbal abuse.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    I rode a motorcycle for 20 years in the valley, i know how drivers are, and her waving her firearm at an unarmed individual? Felony.
    ive been riding motorcycles for 40 years but i dont make decisions on whos right or wrong in a situation that i did not witness because i dont like the way people drive in cars...and lumping everyone in the valley into the same category in that respect is as discriminating as the motorcyclists comments were to the op's wife...

    there is no information that suggests she escalated the situation by blowing the horn unless she did it in anger...and it still shouldnt be construed that way as a near miss is commonly followed by a horn event...i agree wholeheartedly with barkn in that respect...the fact that she should have been aware of the motorcyclist in her blind spot isnt relevant either...the motorcyclist should be aware he is in someones blind spot if he is overtaking in a situation where they have right of way...

    dont turn this into a motorcyclist against car situation...he should not have stopped...thats escalation and his actions were illegal....she should have reported the incident especially as she involved her firearm...and i would guess as my previous post stated she had other options to avoid confrontation....

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    I rode a motorcycle for 20 years in the valley, i know how drivers are, and her waving her firearm at an unarmed individual? Felony.
    Just to make clear, my post was only limited to my opinion as to the proper use of honking a horn, and whether or not that act should automatically be considered to be escalating a situation into a violent encounter. I did not even respond to, or address the topic of the woman pulling her gun.

    However, since you did... When a person cuts you off on the open road forcing you to take evasive action and honk your horn to alert the careless rider what happened and he then forces you to a stop on the open road, dismounts and aggressively approaches you with helmet on, and yelling at you.... That looks pretty threatening to me!

    And by the way, the courts tend to give women a lot of latitude when responding to an angry, screaming and threatening male who is intimidatingly wearing head protection (ensuring he stands a better chance of not getting hurt in a fight.)

    And I didn't see where the OP stated that she removed her gun from the holster and pointed it at him in a menacing and ostentatious manner (brandishing). I believe he said she retrieved it from the center console to have it if she needed it. She never removed the gun from the holster and kept it in her lap. As a matter of fact the only reason the biker could see it is because he was bearing down on her window close enough to be able to see down inside her car.

    Again, seems pretty threatening to me on the part of the biker. I don't think he had any reason to force her off the road, dismount his bike and approach her in a menacing way, yelling and screaming at her. I don't care what she's done.

    This attitude of the the biker being in her "blind spot" is no excuse for her actions is B.S. You ride a motorcycle you accept the responsibility of knowing that there are going to drivers who simply do not see you at every given moment on the road. As a matter of fact, it is stated in every single motorcycle drivers manual I've ever read and I've read motorcycle riders manual from 4 different states over the years.

    You ride a motorcycle, you accept the responsibility for being a smaller, harder to see object on the road. Someone rides like an idiot, popping in and out of traffic, cutting people off, riding in blind spots, because they like the "freedom of the road" and the "wind in your hair" kind of thing, have got no right to be enraged when someone damn near hits them! Period.

    I rode for over 10 years and quit because of the other drivers. Too many close calls because of other drivers inattention. But I knew where my responsibility as a rider was and it was not to blame every driver on the road who didn't see me. I started to become an angry rider and recognized it. So I quit riding!
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post
    What would I do? If I couldn't drive around the motorcycle, I'd leave my car in gear. I almost never have a cell phone, so out of luck there - if I did, I'd call 911 to document that someone was threatening me. Yes, someone forcing you to stop is a threat...safe bet he isn't about to invite her to church. If the guy looks like he's going to attack me, then it depends. If he is about to attack me with a club or something to break the window, I rev up the engine, pop the clutch and my 4000 lb vehicle hits his 500 lb bike as hard as I can arrange it...then I keep driving and do NOT stop for anyone but a cop.

    If I suspect he might go for a gun & shoot thru my window, I put my hand on my gun. I'm waiting for my concealed permit, so I'm open carry anyways - on my left hip, where other drivers can't see anything, but a cop (or nut screaming at my window) can see it easily anyways.

    But I rarely carry now (not a big open carry fan), and have made it thru over 35 years of driving without needing to pull a gun on someone. If someone wants to force me over, he's going to have to risk his life to do it. Someone trying to forcibly stop my car is already a serious threat, and my first defense is my car.
    you would be best to avoid his bike unless he is threatening you with it...you might just turn the event into an accident scene that your insurance company and the police wont be fond of...seeking an escape route is much more responsible and involves less legalities....what looks good in movies and dreams doesnt usually work out quite so well in real life...

  12. #27
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    Here in Arizona we’re not so much into the whole brandishing thing'. It’s really more like ‘leave me alone; I’m not in the mood’ sort of vernacular. In any event, the real justifying factor has more to do with articulating a reasonable 'fear for life' perception by a person whom is accosted. Of course avoidance is always better if the circumstances allow it. Likewise, we haven’t a clue if the traffic situation or risk of collateral damage was present, so she may well have reacted in a reasonable manner.
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
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  13. #28
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    Arizona is an OC state so her having it Open in the car is not brandishing... unless there is a law that says no OC in your car, you must CC it the whole time. I don't see it as brandishing.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spec View Post
    Arizona is an OC state so her having it Open in the car is not brandishing... unless there is a law that says no OC in your car, you must CC it the whole time. I don't see it as brandishing.
    handling the handgun...even holstered...is not open carry...it shows intent...i dont completely disagree with what she did but i feel she had other options being in a vehicle and should have involved le immediately if not at least after the gun was brought into the equation...

  15. #30
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    Read what people have posted above about AZ law and presenting your weapon to de-escalate a situation...they have different laws than most states. After reading this and going back to see what the description of how she handled the gun ("defensively displayed her firearm") it seems what she did is NOT BRANDISHING ... right?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAMNMIKE View Post
    Defensive Display
    Arizona's new law (2009) is a model for the nation
    Warning an attacker that you're armed is protected by law.





    Dreamed up and first enacted in Montana, "Defensive Display" has been drafted, introduced and pushed through by the Arizona Citizens Defense League (with help from the NRA and the Arizona State Rifle and Pistol Assn.). A citizen now has robust protection for using a firearm in self defense without actually firing it. Previously, a threat or motion to produce a firearm, even when threatened by an attacker, could lead to assault charges against the innocent gun owner. Now, to balance that out, a specific law justifies the threat or reach for a gun in self defense. Elegant, simple, fair.





    A.R.S. §13-421. Justification; defensive display of a firearm; definition
    (SB 1243, enacted July 13, 2009, effective Sep. 30, 2009.)




    A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

    B. This section does not apply to a person who:

    1. Intentionally provokes another person to use or attempt to use unlawful physical force.

    2. Uses a firearm during the commission of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706 or violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03.

    C. This section does not require the defensive display of a firearm before the use of physical force or the threat of physical force by a person who is otherwise justified in the use or threatened use of physical force.

    D. For the purposes of this section, "defensive display of a firearm" includes:

    1. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.

    2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

    3. Placing the person's hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.

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