Would you have pulled your firearm?

This is a discussion on Would you have pulled your firearm? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Me and my wife were just discussing this last week after a board member here asked if he was justified? Well I showed my wife ...

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Thread: Would you have pulled your firearm?

  1. #1
    Member Array JAMNMIKE's Avatar
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    Would you have pulled your firearm?

    Me and my wife were just discussing this last week after a board member here asked if he was justified? Well I showed my wife the post and she said NO there was no justification if he did have the firearm on him. BTW she took Hansen's class so she knows about justification. Today she tells me a similar situation occurred with her . She was making a left turn as her light was green and a motorcyclist had a yield sign and went straight out and tried to beat her. Being in her blind spot she didn't see him and almost made contact but she swerved and avoided it. She then started blowing the horn at this guy and the cyclist actually forced her to slow down and stopped right in front of her car . Guy got off of his bike and started walking towards her yelling and she was fine with that exchanging loud vocal crap and she was completely fine with that... The guy then told her to bring her "BROWN SKIN" back to where she came from. (just a reminder that we are Asian Pacific Islanders) We are not "you know what" so that being said she got furious and he was still advancing towards her vehicle. when the guy was in viewing distance of what was inside the car, she then pulled her G26 from the glove and defensively displayed her firearm that was still holstered. Guy retreated back still cussing at her and went on his way. My wife is petit and not really scary looking hence the CCW training part. She just said If I was there I would have beaten the guy up? Geez. WTH? she doesn't think I have self control? JK I don't know what I would have done? If someone pulled the RACE card on me? Well .. . Happy Thursday!
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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Considering "disparity of force" she might get away with brandishing her weapon...I think she could reasonably show that she was in fear for her life.

    However police's decision whether to charge her or not...and then possibly a jury...will also be evaluating her participation in the confrontation. As the the carrier of the firearm, she is supposed to avoid confrontation...she honked at the biker. That is escalation. He may have made an honest mistake. Then verbal abuses were exchanged. Did she have room to back up and go around him? If she had any opportunity to retreat, she should have.

    IMO, she should have not lost her temper and engaged him at all. And it sounds like her gun was drawn in anger rather than fear for her life (just a way a jury might see it).
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    Member Array JAMNMIKE's Avatar
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    BTW here in ARIZONA we passed a bill in September of 2009 that you can difuse a situation or de escalate a situation by showing your firearm. Just saying so brandishing is not in play here.
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    Senior Member Array Tala's Avatar
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    I watch people at yield signs very closely even when I have the right of way, because I've had a few try to run them on me. When people obviously fail to yield, I have been known to lay on the horn and drive like I'm in a Mac truck. They generally see the error of their way get out of my way. I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin....... The last guy that didn't yield paid for my husband's truck and received two citations.
    but
    I'm NOT sayin that you should push your luck, wrecks are bad. It is best to double check the intersection before proceding. Make sure everyone who is supposed to yield does so. It's just part of defensive driving. Not everyone stops on red, unfortunately, and looking before making a "protected" left turn has saved my hide at least twice. If she had checked, and noticed that he was gonna run it, she could have just slowed down a little and let him by. I did that once for a semi that obviously wasn't going to yield. No harm, no foul, even if it does irk ya when they do it.

    I don't stop for nothin, that's just begging for trouble. She should have just spun gravel out of there, no verbal confrontation necessary. A motorcycle simply is not big enough to block an entire road ;)
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    Member Array JAMNMIKE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tala View Post
    I watch people at yield signs very closely even when I have the right of way, because I've had a few try to run them on me. When people obviously fail to yield, I have been known to lay on the horn and drive like I'm in a Mac truck. They generally see the error of their way get out of my way. I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin....... The last guy that didn't yield paid for my husband's truck and received two citations.
    but
    I'm NOT sayin that you should push your luck, wrecks are bad. It is best to double check the intersection before proceding. Make sure everyone who is supposed to yield does so. It's just part of defensive driving. Not everyone stops on red, unfortunately, and looking before making a "protected" left turn has saved my hide at least twice. If she had checked, and noticed that he was gonna run it, she could have just slowed down a little and let him by. I did that once for a semi that obviously wasn't going to yield. No harm, no foul, even if it does irk ya when they do it.

    I don't stop for nothin, that's just begging for trouble. She should have just spun gravel out of there, no verbal confrontation necessary. A motorcycle simply is not big enough to block an entire road ;)

    She was already turned into the street and the guy on the bike was trying to beat her in position going in on her blind spot. She layed the horn when he tried to overtake her and he slowed down right in front of her vehicle. My wife is petit and not scary looking as she has a young looking face.
    Defensive Display
    Arizona's new law (2009) is a model for the nation
    Warning an attacker that you're armed is protected by law.





    Dreamed up and first enacted in Montana, "Defensive Display" has been drafted, introduced and pushed through by the Arizona Citizens Defense League (with help from the NRA and the Arizona State Rifle and Pistol Assn.). A citizen now has robust protection for using a firearm in self defense without actually firing it. Previously, a threat or motion to produce a firearm, even when threatened by an attacker, could lead to assault charges against the innocent gun owner. Now, to balance that out, a specific law justifies the threat or reach for a gun in self defense. Elegant, simple, fair.





    A.R.S. 13-421. Justification; defensive display of a firearm; definition
    (SB 1243, enacted July 13, 2009, effective Sep. 30, 2009.)




    A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

    B. This section does not apply to a person who:

    1. Intentionally provokes another person to use or attempt to use unlawful physical force.

    2. Uses a firearm during the commission of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706 or violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03.

    C. This section does not require the defensive display of a firearm before the use of physical force or the threat of physical force by a person who is otherwise justified in the use or threatened use of physical force.

    D. For the purposes of this section, "defensive display of a firearm" includes:

    1. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.

    2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

    3. Placing the person's hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.
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    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    OK...now did she call 911 and report him and give a description? Or are you going to wait until the other guy calls 911 and reports some lady pulled a gun on him as he was riding his bike?
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    Member Array JAMNMIKE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    OK...now did she call 911 and report him and give a description? Or are you going to wait until the other guy calls 911 and reports some lady pulled a gun on him as he was riding his bike?
    different states different laws, my wife didnt call 911 hell I asked her what the plate number was and she couldnt even remember. Adrenaline was up in there, and unlike trained people here and EXPERTS so to speak.. will react differently. She's 5'4 petit was she justified? Yes she was he made the threat of forcefully stopping in front of her and approached her in a threatening manner.

    13-418. Justification; use of force in defense of residential structure or occupied vehicles; definitions

    A. Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, a person is justified in threatening to use or using physical force or deadly physical force against another person if the person reasonably believes himself or another person to be in imminent peril of death or serious physical injury and the person against whom the physical force or deadly physical force is threatened or used was in the process of unlawfully or forcefully entering, or had unlawfully or forcefully entered, a residential structure or occupied vehicle, or had removed or was attempting to remove another person against the other person's will from the residential structure or occupied vehicle.

    B. A person has no duty to retreat before threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force pursuant to this section.

    C. For the purposes of this section:

    1. "Residential structure" has the same meaning prescribed in section 13-1501.

    2. "Vehicle" means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, that is designed to transport persons or property.
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    Tommy view, as the situation is described she escalated the situation by blowing the horn, therefore she loses the right to use the gun during the ensuing events. Her stature has nothing to do with the event and the fact that she is in a car versus a bike could be seen by a jury as giving her the advantage. She should not have stopped but gone around the bike when it stopped. If it persued call 911. Once she displayed, calling 911 was a must do to protect herself. Just my $0.02.
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    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    JMO, but as soon as he got off the bike she should have laid down on the horn and no let up until he turned and go back on his bike. In a situation like that and especially for the lady, you want all eyes on the moron as he plays out his goofy plan. IMO leave the pistol alone unless he has a weapon or starts to touch the car. Heck, depending on what he's acting like I might just crash right into his bike provided he wanted to dismount it right in front of my vehicle and basically trapping me from leaving/avoiding the confrontation. YMMV

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    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Some replies said it all--I just would like to reiterate. You are in your car--you can drive away--end of story. If you are followed, you drive to the police station--end of story. You DO NOT BRANDISH YOUR FIREARM--end of story.

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    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    In Florida, an action like that (brandishing) draws a mandatory 3-year sentence. So state law is really critical in this specific case.

    A few years back something similar happened to me: I pulled into traffic and I guess the guy I pulled in front of thought I'd cut it too close. Maybe he had to tap his brakes or something. It didn't seem to me that I'd done anything unusual or aggressive. But the guy started following me and when we hit a long straight stretch he overtook me and then stopped, blocking the road.

    As I saw his door open, I put the car in reverse and as he approached me, I checked the rearview - all clear behind - and started backing up, keeping about 20 feet or so between him and my car. He was yelling something and shaking his fist. After only a little bit of this, he became aware of standing in the middle of the road, between our respective vehicles. So he went back to his van and drove off.
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    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    OK...now did she call 911 and report him and give a description? Or are you going to wait until the other guy calls 911 and reports some lady pulled a gun on him as he was riding his bike?
    different states different laws, my wife didnt call 911 hell I asked her what the plate number was and she couldnt even remember. Adrenaline was up in there, and unlike trained people here and EXPERTS so to speak.. will react differently. She's 5'4 petit was she justified? Yes she was he made the threat of forcefully stopping in front of her and approached her in a threatening manner.
    this has 0 to do with Arizona laws, if your wife did not report the confrontation and a person calls the police with their own side of the story your wife is the one who will be in trouble and not calling the police to report it makes it look bad for her and the other guy's story more believable
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    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    she should have been on the phone to 911 the second the guy stopped in front of her...would have had the plate number right in fornt of her and a well documented screaming guy on a 911 tape for a road rage incident...with a "the police are on their way" she could have diffused tha situation and still had the opportunity to drive away while on the phone...

    before a gun enters into the situation one should think about how they would handle it without a gun...until there isnt an solution to avoid the situation there isnt a need for the gun...

    once the gun was displayed she should have called 911...she could get into trouble for this if the guy decided to call...

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    Member Array Nosler Guy's Avatar
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    Not knowing all the facts about the surrounding environment I can only assume that there was nobody behind her. If she had an opportunity to escape the situation then she should have. I agree that pulling the race card is not cool but we live in the kind of world where it can happen. Should someone get shot for such a thing? I don't think it would be justified. If he were to actually start hitting her car while yelling, that is an escalation of force and I believe that would be justified in brandishing with a command to leave. The good thing is that everyone went home in one piece and nobody went to jail.
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    Justified or not in court , she should have drove off rather than get in a verbal exchange with another. Sounds like her anger got the better of her over reasoning. While she may have training , she needs more or better control over her emotions.
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