News Story/response Scenario

[crf3973]

http://kezi.com/news/local/182448

Near DEXTER, Ore. -- Eugene police are on the hunt for a man they say sexually assaulted and kidnapped a woman.

They say Matthew Phillip Williams took a woman against her will. She escaped with the help of attendants at a gas station off Highway 58.

Attendants came across the pair around 6:30 Friday morning. They say a woman in the passenger seat of a car pleaded for help, claiming Williams broke into her home and raped her.

Police say Williams drove up to a gas station near Dexter. Employee Stephanie Duckett says he pulled up to pump number one. She says the woman with him yelled she'd been kidnapped and raped. At first, Duckett says she didn't take it seriously until she looked closer and saw the woman bound by shoelaces.

"When I turn back around, I realize her neck and hands and feet have all been bound. And he's sitting there wrestling with her to try and keep her in the car, and I yelled at him and he finally turned back around and paid attention to me and she got out and ran inside," said Duckett.

Employees say the woman told them she knew the man. He was her sister's ex-boyfriend. They say he sped off before police arrived. Crews say the woman was transported to a RiverBend Hospital in Springfield.

Williams is described as 5'8" tall, 205 pounds, with brown hair, hazel eyes, a tattoo "5150" on his stomach. Police say Williams may be driving a stolen dark blue 1997 Honda Accord four-door with license plate VWH 806. If you have any information, call Eugene police.
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So you are walking down the street, and this car with the described people pulls up to a stop light. The woman inside screams that she has been raped and kidnapped. You see that she is bound as the news story describes, confirming that this is most likely not a joke.

What do you do?

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Tom G]

If I'am armed I would draw and order the driver out of the car and get him face down on the ground. If he trys to take off I would shoot as many tires out as possible. shooting into the car could result in hitting the girl. I would then call 911 as i followed the car.

[CyanLite]

Be a good witness by calling 911 and following the car at a reasonably safe distance. Identifying marks/characteristics along the way (dented front bumper, tattoo on right shoulder, etc.)

[SIGguy229]

Really hard to say...believe it or not...

On one hand, we are not LEOs....we cannot effect a stop without drawing (brandishing)--and possibly getting ourselves into trouble (what do they say about good intentions?)...how do we know this isn't a domestic dispute? Those are ugly for trained LEOs... There was a news story a couple of months back where a teenage girl was "forcibly" pushed/pulled into a van in a parking lot of a Wal-Mart in Virginia. They found the van less than 24 hours later in Florida. It was a teenage girl who didn't want to listen to her parents and was basically being a brat. It's stories like this where we as a bystander do not have all of the facts. The problem with the scenario above is--we know the backstory. IMO, another course of action is to be a witness and call 911, get a description, etc.

On the other hand, we can ask questions...and respond accordingly as we get answers (or not get answers)

My point is--don't get pulled/sucked into a situation that you don't know the whole story or put into a compromising position. We are a citizens with a permit to carry a firearm (AK, VT and soon to be AZ--notwithstanding)...not a permit to inject ourselves into a situations just because we have a firearm.

I carry to protect me and mine...not so much for others. They should be taking off the blinders and taking responsibility for themselves. Does it sound heartless? Maybe. But when push comes to shove, who is going to protect my family if I'm in jail for trying to "do the right thing"...and be punished for it because some teenage girl is being pouty?....or a couple is having a fight and because I injected myself into a domestic dispute and the course of events causes me to defend myself from the male aggressor, I'm tried for murder...and the key witness against me is the same woman I've "saved" tells the jury her sweet loving husband would never have hurt her...that it was just words and don't know why Mr SIGguy229 shot her innocent husband for doing nothing but talking in a loud voice---I mean, he was going to start brain surgery school just next week and was teaching orphans how to read!!

No thanks...witness only.

<break>

If I'am armed I would draw and order the driver out of the car and get him face down on the ground. If he trys to take off I would shoot as many tires out as possible. shooting into the car could result in hitting the girl. I would then call 911 as i followed the car.

You have got to be kidding, right!? Under what authority are you acting under? This is such a BAD IDEA...Unless you are a LEO--and this is your department's SOP (unlikely)....you are a citizen with permit--NOT a badge (CCW badges do not count). Also, you do realize that WHEN you miss the tires/hit the rims, the bullets richochet, right? The bullets go somewhere....and you had better hope those bullets don't go into people (or the "hostage" herself). But this is the absolute wrong thing to do...I really can't say any more than that....

[Guantes]

First, I think that it will be difficult following a vehicle on foot unless there is very heavy traffic.

I think that intervention by good citizens is a good thing. The question is the intervention itself. For me it falls into two different catagories, passive intervention and active intervention. Passive being call 911, be a good wit, etc. Active being verbal and physical intervention.

Having professionally done active intervention to protect and defend victims for many years, my intervention now will be mostly passive, with possible exceptions based on a case by case basis. In this case, most likely passive. Many scenarios are difficult to call without actually being there to absord all the nuances of the situation.

The one thing previously mentioned that cannot be over emphasized is the potential snakepit/mine field that domestics can be.

[JohnK87]

Intervene for a domestic? No. For someone crying rape who is tied up? Yep.

[JJVP]

Nor trying to hijack the thread, but you should not copy the article here. The Armed Citizen website as well as others have been sued for Copyright infringement and might be forced to close permanently. Just summarize the story in your own words and then post the link. Don't just copy and paste. We don't want this site to suffer the same fate as The Armed Citizen.

Here is the Copyright legalese from the site you copied http://kezi.com/site/terms

You can read the Armed Citizen story here: http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/

[retsupt99]

Once the woman was safe, let the dirtbag go. I need no arrest practice. Kidnapping, rape, stolen car...this guy is taking a life vacation at the state's expense. If he's lucky enough he'll do something to have the cops shoot him.

[archer51]

Once the woman was safe, let the dirtbag go. I need no arrest practice. Kidnapping, rape, stolen car...this guy is taking a life vacation at the state's expense. If he's lucky enough he'll do something to have the cops shoot him.

+1. She's safely away from the BG, so just be a good witness.

[bsms]

...On one hand, we are not LEOs....we cannot effect a stop without drawing (brandishing)--and possibly getting ourselves into trouble (what do they say about good intentions?)...
You have got to be kidding, right!? Under what authority are you acting under? This is such a BAD IDEA...Unless you are a LEO--and this is your department's SOP (unlikely)....you are a citizen with permit--NOT a badge...

Partially agree. A lot depends on state laws, but many states DO allow a citizen to take whatever action is needed to prevent/end a felony in the act. In the scenario given, you have seen the girl is tied up and is screaming she has been raped.

Would I draw and shoot the guy? No. Would I draw? Yes. If nothing else, I've become a witness that can ID him, and he might not want to leave any witnesses. Nor do I believe in my non-lawyer mind that this is brandishing. A reasonable person could conclude a felony is in process and pulling a gun is legal - at least, in Arizona. Order the guy out? Probably. Shoot him if he refuses? Probably not. Deadly force is different from force, and I don't know what the law says. And if he peals out, I don't know I can hit him and not someone else. Jump in my car and pursue? Probably.

Not a lawyer, so this is just food for thought for folks:

"Arizona law allows for citizen's arrest when the suspect commits a felony that the arresting citizen witnesses or when a citizen knows that a felony has been committed and has reasonable grounds to believe that the suspect committed it. [See A.R.S. section 13-3884.]..."

Interesting article at the source: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informe...itizens-unrest

AZ Law (http://www.azleg.state.az.us/arizona...s.asp?title=13)

13-3884. Arrest by private person

A private person may make an arrest:
1. When the person to be arrested has in his presence committed a misdemeanor amounting to a breach of the peace, or a felony.
2. When a felony has been in fact committed and he has reasonable ground to believe that the person to be arrested has committed it.

13-3889. Method of arrest by private person

A private person when making an arrest shall inform the person to be arrested of the intention to arrest him and the cause of the arrest, unless he is then engaged in the commission of an offense, or is pursued immediately after its commission or after an escape, or flees or forcibly resists before the person making the arrest has opportunity so to inform him, or when the giving of such information will imperil the arrest.

13-3892. Right of private person to break into building

A private person, in order to make an arrest where a felony was committed in his presence, as authorized in section 13-3884, may break open a door or window of any building in which the person to be arrested is or is reasonably believed to be, if he is refused admittance after he has announced his purpose.

13-3900. Duty of private person after making arrest

A private person who has made an arrest shall without unnecessary delay take the person arrested before the nearest or most accessible magistrate in the county in which the arrest was made, or deliver him to a peace officer, who shall without unnecessary delay take him before such magistrate. The private person or officer so taking the person arrested before the magistrate shall make before the magistrate a complaint, which shall set forth the facts showing the offense for which the person was arrested. If, however, the officer cannot make the complaint, the private person who delivered the person arrested to the officer shall accompany the officer before the magistrate and shall make to the magistrate the complaint against the person arrested.

Legality aside, a 5 shot J-frame and good intentions do NOT make me a cop. I can see pursuing the guy if he flees, but not shooting and not making an arrest unless he complies IF told to get out of the car. I do NOT try to shoot if he peals out, aim for tires, etc. I don't know what the approved procedure is for a cop in that circumstance, but I doubt it is opening up on the fleeing car.

And once the girl gets out of the car, I no longer have any great desire to 'arrest' the guy. I would prefer for him to peal out and meet a half dozen cops an hour later...

[bsms]

There is a good article on citizen's arrest here: http://www.criminalattorney.com/news/citizens-arrest/

[SIGguy229]

Here's the thing....because of the OP's story, you think you have all of the facts.

Every situation is different. You don't know the backstory. You don't have all of the facts. You're injecting yourself into a situation (because you have a gun??) that could be very different than what you think it is. Look at the totality of the circumstances.

[Guantes]

+1
A back story.
The drivers wife has recently been released from a mental institution. At home she tried to stab her husband. He, whether smart or not, has restrained her and is driving her back to the institution that she was released from for further controlled treatment.
OOPS.

[crf3973]

Archer and ret, my scenario is that the woman has only stated she has been raped and kidnapped. She has not escaped the vehicle.

[shockwave]

I carry to protect me and mine...not so much for others.

That's usually the right policy. CCW doesn't make you LEO. This specific situation, with a kidnapping rapist, is an exception. Here, I apply the "what if it was your daughter?" test. You'd want bystanders to get involved, and nobody wants a freak like this on the loose.