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Another Purse Snatcher Scenario

4K views 49 replies 21 participants last post by  paaiyan 
#1 ·
You're walking out of the local mall at night after doing some late night Christmas shopping, and BG runs by and snatches your wife's purse. You are of course in Condition Orange, but it's a busy shopping mall, the BG isn't a teenage punk, but rather a middle-aged white guy with a polo shirt and khaki's. He has not presented a weapon, however you don't know what he has.

What do you do? Do you pull (your weapon) and pursue? Do you shoot him in the back (he is after all in the process of committing a felony robbery)?

Your wife's purse of course has cash and personally identifying information about where you live, etc.

(The assumption can be made you are in a "Stand Your Ground" state that allows you to act if a BG is "committing or about to commit" burglary/robbery in any degree)
 
#2 ·
Neither of these is a good option.

Shooting the robber in the back is the absolute worst thing you could do if you enjoy your freedom (or have any semblance of respect for human life). I'm not a lawyer, but I would argue that the robber is not "committing" a robbery, but "has committed" a robbery by the time he is running away. The stand your ground doctrine would come into effect if your wife were hanging on to the purse and a struggle for its possession ensued. Then, the robber would be in the act of "committing" a robbery.

The spirit of the law is that certain crimes such as robbery are inherently very dangerous, and if someone is about to commit or committing a robbery against you it is reasonable to assume that violence is about to occur. Therefore, you may respond in kind to protect yourself or your loved ones. Once the robber has whatever the object is and is fleeing, you're no longer in danger so you don't have justification to shoot.

Pulling your weapon and pursuing is a great way to get a "crazy man with gun chasing people in the parking lot" call to Police. If you feel the need to pursue, which is VERY dangerous, leave your gun holstered. As I said before, it's easy to argue that the the dangerous portion of the crime that gives you justification to shoot is over the moment the robber flees so your weapon should not be drawn. If during your pursuit, the robber becomes a threat again (stops and turns with a knife, etc.), you may have justification to draw your weapon. However, keep in mind that if you choose to pursue you are the one putting yourself in harm's way, so the rules of engagement may change drastically.
 
#27 ·
Neither of these is a good option.

Shooting the robber in the back is the absolute worst thing you could do if you enjoy your freedom (or have any semblance of respect for human life). I'm not a lawyer, but I would argue that the robber is not "committing" a robbery, but "has committed" a robbery by the time he is running away. The stand your ground doctrine would come into effect if your wife were hanging on to the purse and a struggle for its possession ensued. Then, the robber would be in the act of "committing" a robbery.

The spirit of the law is that certain crimes such as robbery are inherently very dangerous, and if someone is about to commit or committing a robbery against you it is reasonable to assume that violence is about to occur. Therefore, you may respond in kind to protect yourself or your loved ones. Once the robber has whatever the object is and is fleeing, you're no longer in danger so you don't have justification to shoot.



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Would you also apply this line of thinking (in bold) if, say your wife or girlfriend was just raped while you were preoccupied(being tied up by BG just prior), but now hes finished, and you somehow freed yourself, just as he turns and walked ot the door. Still not gonna shoot???
The laws are goofed up, in the sense that in one felony act , you would probably be justified, and in the other, you would probably be up the creek without a paddle








If you spend your day doing nothing, how do you know when you're done?
 
#22 · (Edited)
How so? I have a purse with wire thru the strap. Someone could go by on a bike in a park or urban environment and grab it...and either drag me or get the purse....and I wouldnt be able to hold on. And I dont carry my purse on the 'road' side however parks, city streets, etc....that's different.

And how is if preventable if I'm not carrying my gun (as there are many cases where I cant take my gun) and someone with a weapon confronts me at close quarters? I would run from anything but a gun or a knife at my throat, however that can still happen. And no one can walk 20 ft from everyone else all the time....The people that say they 'mever let anyone that close to them' are not being very realistic.


LOL, sorry. Of course if you dont carry a purse, it is 100% preventable. I stand corrected.
These are just 2 examples but if you have advice or examples of your own to support your statement I am interested in hearing them.
 
#4 ·
Until recently, I would have said Virginia law precluded deadly force to stop propriety crime.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/254196

A former J.C. Penney Co. store guard who fired a gun as a suspected shoplifter fled into the Valley View Mall parking lot was being stupid -- but not reckless, at least as state law defines it, a judge said Monday.

....

The judge said the law allows deadly force during a citizen's arrest if the person making the arrest believes a felony has occurred.
However, see discussion at:

http://blogs.roanoke.com/dancasey/2...pistol-firing-mall-cop-off-the-hook/#comments

http://blogs.roanoke.com/dancasey/2...no-shoplifter-will-be-safe-anywhere/#comments

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...BAD-Mall-security-guard-fired-at-a-shoplifter
 
#6 ·
Flip it around. How about a 70 year old with COPD, a bad heart, & on a pacemaker doing the "chasing"? :haha:
 
#7 ·
Keep the purse out of range of an easy grab, and stay alert. You should be seeing someone running at you in a mall parking lot. If not, you need to work on your SA.
In the case of the OP's scenario, I believe that you're out of luck. Call 911, and keep the gun holstered.OMO
 
#8 ·
Barring all preventative measures being successful, and that the BG now has the purse, I give wife my phone to make the call to 911, and I persue, without drawing! As yet, noone's life is in danger, so, I have no need for a gun.

If I catch him, I take back wifes purse and smack him around a bit for the trouble, if not, at least I got a better look at him, dress, size, hair (face and head) and direction so that I can be a better witness.
 
#9 ·
First, I think that most on here, "in Condition Orange", would notice a male adult running at you and your SO and take preventative measures, such as moving in front of the SO.

Going with what's given, many foot pursuits are won or lost in the first couple seconds. The faster you are on them the better your chances of catching them. In a full run, drawing a weapon is very difficult and would probably be apparent. If I caught up to him, I have found that a moderate push forward on the back will send most into a belly flop. That would significantly reduce the need for a struggle. Retrieve the purse and hold him for LE.
 
#10 ·
Not being sure of all state Statues, guide lines, and laws, i will say its never cut and dry to shoot an unarmed person, and even worst to shoot an unarmed person running away. I would begin a chase to at least a point of eye balling/following TARGET, before/while calling 911 and given the usual info. I don't want to run through a mall with my gun in my hand, unless i was in fear of my life, and running after or following someone doesn't describe fear of life unless circumstances did before the chase where a weapon was seen or indicated. If your going to play COPS and ROBBERS be ready for consequences like having to shoot in a mall hitting by standers/children.

This kind of scenario in my opinion, the risk doesn't justify the results, i suggest, do your part in a safe manner, give the 911 person path of flight, description, and location updates. Liability/life Risk= purse snatch=?
 
#11 ·
The purse has been snatched and the BG is fleeing. There is no viable threat to you or your spouse/loved one. Call the police and give them the info they need. There is nothing in this scenario that would justify drawing and shooting the thief, especially in the back.

The question I have for the OP is. Are a few dollars and ID worth taking someones life over? It isn't in my book.
 
#18 ·
These types of threads are terrifying to me as a gun owner, and further a person who carries daily. The very fact that CyanLite would list "shooting the purse snatcher in the back as he runs away because he is committing a felony" as an possible response, clearly shows his or her lack of understanding in regards to self-defense laws. Law abiding, albeit stupid or uneducated in regards to SD laws. These people will have a hand in the down fall of our 2A rights if they are allowed to carry out these acts. Luckily some people stumble across resources such as online gun related forums.

OP, shooting a purse snatcher who already has your wifes purse, and is clearly running away, would land you in jail. I'm not up on your state laws, and I won't pretend to act as if I know them. However you need to look at some basic principles for using lethal force for self defense. The first would be "I was in fear for my life, my life was in imminent danger of death, or serious bodily injury". If that is not happening, you are not justified in shooting.

Using lethal force to stop a felony, well, it can't be just any felony. You can't shoot someone for embezzling money, or carrying a kilo of cocaine, even if they are doing it right infront of you and the actor is in the middle of committing the crime. I will stop here because my state doesn't really have outrageous laws like this, yet. I will say that you will likely have to prove you were in fear for your life or anothers, in all but the most extreme states, ie texas.
 
#19 ·
I will say that you will likely have to prove you were in fear for your life or anothers, in all but the most extreme states, ie texas.
Even in Texas, the Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground laws only allow you to protect your home, vehicle, and workplace from intruders, or if certain violent crimes are taking place. So I bet the DA may have words with you for shooting someone as they siphon funds electronically from someone's bank account. :biggrin2:
 
#23 ·
You're walking out of the local mall at night after doing some late night Christmas shopping, and BG runs by and snatches your wife's purse. You are of course in Condition Orange, but it's a busy shopping mall, the BG isn't a teenage punk, but rather a middle-aged white guy with a polo shirt and khaki's. He has not presented a weapon, however you don't know what he has.

What do you do? Do you pull (your weapon) and pursue? Do you shoot him in the back (he is after all in the process of committing a felony robbery)?

)
You are in a busy mall! Hello?????

I wouldnt even consider drawing my weapon. And the penalty for doing so is probably harsher than that for purse snatching.
 
#30 ·
Well in the exact situation described in the OP... I leave it holstered and chase the guy down. I'm 22 and very athletic. If we're really talking about a middle-aged man here, I'm getting that purse back. If anyone asks questions about why I chased him, I'll point to Oklahoma's statutes allowing any citizen to arrest anyone for any misdemeanor or felony they have witnessed, as well as the statutes allowing "reasonable force" in the apprehension and detention of said person.

This is all assuming that my girlfriend doesn't beat me to him.
 
#34 ·
I think that one of the things not often discussed, is a split second HONEST evaluation as to if you have the attributes, training and experience to provide at least a good probability that you will be successful in your chosen action. Not a guarantee, but a good probability, for if you want a guarantee you will never take any action. For those at either end of the scale, the decision is relatively easy. For those in the middle it becomes more difficult.

Scenarios and news events allow the ability to assess situations that may occur and evaluate your perceived probability of success in a chosen action without commitment. The benefit is that if a smiilar situation occurs, you already have a pretty good feel for your success probability and the extent of action you should take.

The above refers to optional actions, not those where you are in lethal jeopardy and you must take action to save your life regardless of the above.
 
#43 ·
^5 Agreed.

SD is all about SA. If I am on top of things and see something or feel threatened, I can have my hand on my gun in my purse. I can make it look like I'm reaching for a cell phone or keys. I'll have that element of surprise and immediate draw time. Someone holster carrying is much more likely to signal they're carrying when they move their garment aside/reach for a gun. I have practiced this many times and I can also shoot thru my purse (I have practiced aiming this way as well).

If I am contronted face-to-face by a mugger, pursesnatcher, whatever, and they have a gun drawn....I wouldnt attempt to outdraw them anyway, holster or purse holster. I dont have that skill and I havent yet learned the CQB skills necessary either. I would hand over purse and immediately run in the opposite direction. There's nothing in that purse worth my life.

There are good points and even some advantages to purse carry.....as well as disadvantages. As I've posted before, I havent forgotten my purse since the early 90's...and I did it bizarrely twice in one week. Before that, it was also a decade or so.
 
#46 ·
My girlfriend is wanting to get her license at some point. I have a feeling purse carry will be her best option really. She's very petite and would have trouble concealing anything but the smallest of guns on her body. Off-body carry will probably be how she does it. Off-body carry isn't ideal, but there are times when it's the best option.

Unless Oklahoma passes an open-carry law like they tried to last session. It got close. here's hoping!
 
#47 ·
There is alot more to purse carry than we normally read on this site (not surprisingly, since it's mostl y men :smile: ) Cornered Cat is an excellent resource.

Thru trial and error (and $$$), I've learned a few things about purse carry. OTOH, there is still more to learn as I have never had to use them in RL. That is why when I post about purse carry here, i am always open to criticism and suggestions, pointing out holes, etc.

One thing I've learned that I havent read anywhere, is that to me, cross-shoulder purse carry seems most useful. Alot of marketing pics show strong shoulder carry. My (home practice) experience shows that the purse hanging off your strong hand shoulder affects your arm and aiming. If you are moving (as you probably should be), it can also slip down off your shoulder, onto your arm. Esp while drawing and raising your arm.

Purse carry/draw, just like holster carry/draw, is something that must be practiced and practiced too, to see what works and what doesnt.
 
#48 ·
i'm all for a woman wearing snug fitting clothes and looking good but i dont see a problem with loose fitting lightweight overshirts from a looks or fashion standpoint....another option is a fashionable vest like many women wear(i'm not talking concealment or photgraphers vests)...all are more than capable of concealing a reasonably sized firearm....sometimes you just have to dress around your edc...we do it...
 
#49 ·
Just an FYI, 'vests' are also the preferred wear of lesbians. Not that there's anything wrong with that!

Seriously tho, that is not necessarily the message that other women want to portray.

Flame away if you must, it's just a general comment. If I want to wear a vest, I do, no worries about other people's ideas. But I wouldnt want to make a habit of it either way.

I live in blue jeans...and unless I dress 'sloppily', holster carry doesnt reasonably nor comfortably work.
 
#50 ·
I already knew about Cornered Cat 9mm and have told her about it before, but thanks for your input!
 
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