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Man threatening to "help quiet down" a loud obnoxious toddler scenario

This is a discussion on Man threatening to "help quiet down" a loud obnoxious toddler scenario within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; How do you expect parents to teach their children how to act in public if we do not take them in public? Yes, well the ...

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Thread: Man threatening to "help quiet down" a loud obnoxious toddler scenario

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    How do you expect parents to teach their children how to act in public if we do not take them in public?
    Yes, well the place for such instruction is McDonalds. That's pretty much it, when it comes to restaurants. Any place that has seats not made of hard molded plastic is not appropriate for your "lil' screamer." Once we're talking $10 a head or better, there should be no cooing, screeching, howling, chirping, barking, spoons banging on plates, or similar ear-splitting explosions of toddlerdom.

    The only exception I would allow is if the child is of silent deportment, but barring that, if it's younger than 3, your choice is McDonald's, Wendy's or Burger King. Got it? End of choices.

    Hey, look - my personal hobby is restoring WWII air raid warning klaxons. I love that sound - "eeeerrrrrooouuuuuaaahhhhh!" I can't get enough of it. But I don't bring one with me when I go out for a meal, and I fully expect the parents of toddlers to extend the same courtesy to me.

    As to the OP's question, no, you don't get to draw. If you're man enough to breed a child, then you're man enough to grab another man and slam him down to the ground. You should be able to raise both hands and shove said galoot away forcefully. Defending your family against an unarmed threat without recourse to a firearm should be fully within your skillset. If it isn't, get training.
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  2. #32
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    Young children will make noise. It's a fact of life.

    OTOH, what drives me nuts is when the parents just let their child run wild in a restaurant. I was out the other day, and these two young children were literally running around in the restaurant. The parents were oblivious.

    Matt
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  3. #33
    Member Array mirage2521's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    . I have no problem complaining about a child's behavior to the same on duty staff, and am not hesitant to do so.

    Biker
    and there we have the actions of a reasonable civil person in a polite society.
    You may now carry on with your absurd non-directional bantering.
    Yocan

  4. #34
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    I think Biker should have drawn on the baby. If the baby disrupts his meal, then he could starve. So his life was in danger.

    (I am, of course, just kidding. That would, however, be equally as justified as drawing on the complaining patron in the OP)
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
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  5. #35
    Member Array mirage2521's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    I would think something to the effect of (and in a LOUD voice): "Stay away from my child....do not touch my child" would deter the bully (after calm options are exhausted)....maybe throw the word "molester" out or "why do you want to touch my child!?" (yeah...I don't play fair)...basically, I'd rather shame someone rather than shoot them. But hey, they play their cards, I'll play mine. No reason to show my hand (gun) if I don't have to.
    There is no such thing as fair. Your tactics sound quite effective and reasonable. Certainly a next step prior to violence. I really would not want my child especially a toddler to witness anything violent. I laugh when I read these threads as I think of my son and someone telling me to keep him quiet. At 6'2", 260 or so and strong as an ox, my son is pretty intimidating.

    Quick story, he was in the 5th grade and the biggest kid in his school literally, but he was very quiet. A bully would trip my boy everytime he tried to walk to the front of the class to do something on the board. This happened for weeks with teacher not doing anything about it in spite of him complaining. At this point I was not aware of anything going on. Well one day the bully stuck his leg out to trip my son. My 5th grader kicked the kids leg, grabbed the hair on the back of his head and slammed his face into his desk three times. Needless to say, he was never tripped again.
    You may now carry on with your absurd non-directional bantering.
    Yocan

  6. #36
    Member Array mirage2521's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    Absolutely nothing has transpired in the scenario that warrants drawing a firearm, and in fact in Florida you'd be setting yourself up for a mandatory three year prison vacation.

    Interpose yourself between the person and the child. Use your training to defuse and de-escalate the situation. If he won't calm down, deploy reasonable force proportionate to the situation.

    No need to go to the gun here, but the thought serves to illustrate a point - when your only tool is a hammer, every problem resembles a nail.

    Matt
    Well said.
    You may now carry on with your absurd non-directional bantering.
    Yocan

  7. #37
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    Just a few weeks ago I had to break up a family celebration because my son was getting out of line. My wife had just gotten her first teaching job (high school physics) and we were out at one of the nicer restaurants in the area. It was a real bummer that I had to pack everything up from our two plates to go and head home to eat instead of enjoying it with the rest of the family, but it would have been seriously uncool to force everyone else listen to my kid throwing a tantrum in his highchair.

    I will say one thing, though. Some chump tried to "shut my kid up" by smacking him and that person would wake up hurting in places that they didn't even know they had places.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychophipps View Post
    Just a few weeks ago I had to break up a family celebration because my son was getting out of line. My wife had just gotten her first teaching job (high school physics) and we were out at one of the nicer restaurants in the area. It was a real bummer that I had to pack everything up from our two plates to go and head home to eat instead of enjoying it with the rest of the family, but it would have been seriously uncool to force everyone else listen to my kid throwing a tantrum in his highchair.
    And that, my friend, is what responsible parents do....

    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    Young children will make noise. It's a fact of life.

    OTOH, what drives me nuts is when the parents just let their child run wild in a restaurant. I was out the other day, and these two young children were literally running around in the restaurant. The parents were oblivious.

    Matt
    And those are the parents who I believe should have a license to breed, take tests, and the like (sarcasm, of course). Seriously...I do judge these parents to be poor parents. Why? They obviously have not adequately evaluated their children to determine if they can behave in a nice restaurant (i.e. someplace where food is NOT wrapped in paper, or tableware is NOT plastic/wrapped in plastic). These parents are selfish and allow their children to get out of control (yelling, screaming, throwing things, and the like).

    There have been times where we were invited out to a nice place, and children were allowed, but we did one of 4 things:
    1. Got a sitter
    2. Brought them with us
    3. Didn't go because the venue was too formal/business-like and there was no sitter available
    4. If option 2 was selected, and the children acted up, one of us would take the child outside (where there were no witnesses ) OR we would leave!


    We have been complimented on our children's behavior, because our children understood what was expected of them. Now that they are 7 and 13, I have no problem taking them out to nice restaurants...but boys being boys, they do get a little loud...but now all it takes is a look from Dad that says "Not acceptable" and they get it. On the rare occassion, I've had to remind the youngest, "Do you want to go outside?"...he's never taken me up on it.
    Last edited by SIGguy229; July 25th, 2010 at 11:04 AM.
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  9. #39
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    As a patron I should not have to endure the screeching of a child ...
    That's fine, so far as it goes. But the moment that thought transcends into threats of violence, such visions of superior rights falls into the flusher. In a public location such as a restaurant, all citizens have equal rights to be there. Life happens. So does a bit of noise, smell and discomfort when it comes to young kids (toddlers, babies). NO degree of threat is justifiable if the "screeching" isn't handled in the manner or as quickly as some wish.

    Too many people run around thinking their child is precious and "special". Maybe to them, but not to me, and I shouldn't be forced to endure typical child behavior in an adult setting.
    In public, you are indeed forced to withhold your claims to violence in response to such "screeching." Though, you're correct in pointing out that suggestions the parent (?) discreetly deal with the "screeching" are perfectly within the rights of anyone to make. I've made such suggestions before. But that's all it can be. If the parents don't take the hint, particularly if the manager of the venue isn't going to take part in resolving the situation to everyone's mutual satisfaction, folks are left with the fact that everyone has a right to be there.

    So long as that's as far as it goes. In the end ... don't like it? Go elsewhere. But nobody's entitled to dish up credible threats of violence to anyone in response. As we all know, that's assault, and a whole truck load of responsibility follows on the heels of it.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member Array Vaquero 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    Yup. "What you think is going to happen, isn't. Be smart and mind your own business."

    Any aggressive move towards my son is met with a world of pain no human should have to endure. Ask the guy that grabbed my son's arm in the grocery store. He's in jail. Been there since he got out of the hospital the week before the trial. Still had my hand print bruises around his throat. Still don't know what was funnier, his lips turning blue or his eyes bugging out of his head as he realized he made a colossal failure of messing with the wrong father who is now pointing a gun barrel to his eyeball. Support hand went around his throat and pushed him backward while my weapon hand drew metal and pressed it into his eyeball. Darwin was a mere twitch of a finger away.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    To think that the rights of your child to disrupt my meal trumps my right to dine in peace is alarming to me.

    I am well aware of age appropriate behavior, but from what I've seen most parental units seem to let their hooligans run amuck with no control. I should not have to endure a crying baby, that is crying because it's tired and can't sleep because the restaurant is too noisy for them, or their diaper needs changing but Momma is too lazy to get off her fat butt and go change it because it would interfere with her scarfing down of food stuff, is just plain rude to the other patrons.

    I'm all for taking children out in public, but doing so entails responsibility on your part to be vigilent in regards to their behavior and to correct the behavior that is inappropriate. Correction can be by way of a "time out", stern talking too, or spanking depending upon your methods.

    Nowhere did I post that my rights trump anyone else's. It's about common courtesy. I am willing to overlook some things, but if their comes a point where the child is effecting the dining expirience of the other patrons then it is the adult's responsibility to deal with the problem. You're the adult to the child, so deal with it. As another patron I will deal with it by complaining to the staff about your child's behavior if I find it inappropriate, and maybe even leaving the restaurant. Sadly too many parents fail their children by not monitoring and correcting their behavior, and this is what I find distasteful to my palate.

    Biker
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  12. #42
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    -- "Once we're talking $10 a head or better, there should be no cooing, screeching, howling, chirping, barking, spoons banging on plates, or similar ear-splitting explosions of toddlerdom."



    Hell, most of the adults don't even act this good. No one knows what a restaurant voice is anymore.
    Bri

  13. #43
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    Both of my sons can get unruly at times. However 1 is 6'3" , about 200" and the other is 6'4" about 250", so I figure they can handle any problem their unruliness causes.

    As others have said, at the first sign of trouble from the guy, contact management. If the guy persists after the manager has talked to him, dial 911 and report the threats of violence. Make it clear to the operator that you don't want any trouble, but you will do what is necessary to protect your child.

    Another option is to just get up and leave. No meal is worth putting yourself into a shooting situation.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post

    Another option is to just get up and leave. No meal is worth putting yourself into a shooting situation.
    ^-- this is probably the correct answer. I'd get my kid(s)/wife and get up leave. Of course the BG would probably have some not-so-kind words to say on the way out. But to the original scenario from the OP, if he got up and made a move towards my infant child with having already said threatening words, I'd have to meet him half way with my XDm in his face. It has escalated to deadly force in to me because:


    1. What does "I'll shut that child up" mean? Temporarily? Permanently?
    2. Slapping/Punching a child can cause "serious" injury to the spinal cord and brain tissue of a child where as to an adult it may only be considered third degree assault. Of course, I'm not a lawyer. In my state (thankfully) 2nd Degree Assault is covered by the "Stand Your Ground" self-defense provisions.
    3. His use of physical/deadly force is now imminent because he has already shown intent and has made a move.

    Intent/Ability are usually the two legal fulfillments to using deadly force in defense of another person. This person has shown intent (I *will* shut that child up) and ability (he can cause severe injury/death with his hands only).

    If I can leave the restaurant safely, I'd still be definitely calling 911 to put a menacing/harassment charge on this guy. Any person who wants to attack children should be locked up at every available opportunity.

    And also, if he picked up a weapon before hand (heavy glass/bottle, steak knife, etc.), I would most likely open fire as soon as he got out of his seat.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    At the first outburst contact the waitress/management and advise them of a hostile patron, its their job to handle unruly customers. Do not engage him verbally at all. If he makes threats and approaches, do whatever is necessary. That does not include drawing a weapon initially.
    + 1

    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Almost certainly, I would have long since dealt with a loud child of mine (by temporarily taking the child out, or moving elsewhere) before it ever got to the point of folks complaining, let alone them feeling justified to threaten violence. So, it's highly doubtful I'd ever see such a scenario.
    + 1

    IMHO a crying/noisy child in a restaurant or church are like a New Year's resolution -- they should be carried out as soon as possible.

    FWIIW -- I've carried my kids, grand-kids, and great-grand-kids out of restaurant. If they are too young to learn, they are too young to even recognize the situation. OTOH if they are old enough to learn, they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Back 40 View Post
    just the thought of someone touching my son boils my blood.
    + 1 and all the more reason to defuse that situation.

    FWIIW, in Virginia self-defense acquittal (either actual shooting or brandishing) requires that the shooter has done nothing to escalate the situation/hostility.
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