Man threatening to "help quiet down" a loud obnoxious toddler scenario
This is a discussion on Man threatening to "help quiet down" a loud obnoxious toddler scenario within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The following scenario is inspired by those stories about strange men and women who take it upon themselves to quiet down "obnoxious" toddlers in Walmart ...
July 24th, 2010 11:11 PM
Man threatening to "help quiet down" a loud obnoxious toddler scenario
The following scenario is inspired by those stories about strange men and women who take it upon themselves to quiet down "obnoxious" toddlers in Walmart and other public places by slapping them, and end up with assault charges.
You're in a restaurant with your wife and 18-month-old toddler. The kid is sitting in his high chair picking at his food and in between bites makes some noise with their plate against the table and occasionally yells to grab parents' attention. Not an out of the ordinary dining experience with a toddler.
A man a few tables over turns and orders you to control that baby of yours and stop the noise. You politely say they are out of line and it's just a toddler enjoying a family outing and that really the noise is not excessive, and turn your head back to your family's table. A few moments later the man again raises his voice and demands that you "quiet down your kid or else I'll have to do it for you". Again you politely ask the patron to mind his own business and if he chooses to complain, they should involve the restaurant manager.
The man is now furious. He gets up from his chair, says "I warned your sorry a**. Someone needs to teach this kid a lesson here" and begins his approach towards your family in a threatening manner.
Do you draw and order him to freeze? What if he continues towards your kid? Clearly there is disparity of force. It could be a Walmart-style slap on his cheek or a deadly blow to your kid's head.
What do you do?
July 24th, 2010 11:24 PM
At the first outburst contact the waitress/management and advise them of a hostile patron, its their job to handle unruly customers. Do not engage him verbally at all. If he makes threats and approaches, do whatever is necessary. That does not include drawing a weapon initially.
July 24th, 2010 11:27 PM
I wouldn't be in fear for my life, or the life of my child. BUT of he laid a hand on my son he should damn well be in fear for his. If there were no weapons drawn by him mine would stay in it's place, but can't promise all of his joints would stay in their place.
July 24th, 2010 11:30 PM
+1...Initially it is NOT your place to verbally engage the hostile person. You are better served by remaining calm and requesting your waitress notify management or perhaps getting up and going to notify managment yourself. At no time would I let my significant other or my child out of my sight. It would definitely be incumbant on the hostile party NOT to touch either one. JMO
Originally Posted by Guantes
Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.
July 24th, 2010 11:37 PM
I used to manage an Outback years ago by a military base. We had quite a few seal teams that would come in for training. One night one of the seal members family was in town and they came in for din er and the same thing as this post happened. Luckily I was called before the disgruntle customer tried to "handle the situation". I defused the situation and was laughing about the guy that was going to handle the situation was the one that was really going to get handled.
I have a 12 week old little boy and just the thought of someone touching my son boils my blood.
July 24th, 2010 11:42 PM
The 'catch phrase' here is hostile. Do not engage but don't avert your attention. 1st Sgt said it pretty good.
Now, anyone goes to that 'level' with my (grand)child........something's gonna happen.
"Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008
(Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay
July 24th, 2010 11:48 PM
Almost certainly, I would have long since dealt with a loud child of mine (by temporarily taking the child out, or moving elsewhere) before it ever got to the point of folks complaining, let alone them feeling justified to threaten violence. So, it's highly doubtful I'd ever see such a scenario.
BTDT, with unruly children previously. In each instance, simply taking the child out temporarily and/or moving elsewhere immediately has sidestepped any claims a given potentially-violent person might have upon me or mine.
The moment credible violence was threatened against me, though, we would be moving elsewhere and the the management would be notified of the threat.
If we did remain (with the child having gotten quieter), from that point on I would be monitoring for the blowhard to explode. Were that actually to happen, with a violent felony immediately occurring against us, I would use the degree of force I deemed necessary to stop the violent felony against us, no matter what it cost the felon, even if it killed him. Much depends on the specifics (proximity, speed and nature of attack, continuation once launched, etc).
Thankfully, I live in a state that does not legally dictate a person must suffer through violent felonies while meekly sucking it up on the off-chance the felon was going to stop short of murder.
As on the street or anywhere else, demeanor and how a person handles such a public threat can have a strong impact on whether that threat continues, whether that person's companions helps to get the blowhard under control. Thankfully, I have yet to meet a murder-in-waiting who has made such threats.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: Why the Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
July 24th, 2010 11:54 PM
I do not understand people who bring their screaming toddlers into dining establishments. There should be a Dante-esque locale for such villains.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
July 24th, 2010 11:59 PM
There is way more substance in this statement than the words suggest.
Originally Posted by ccw9mm
July 25th, 2010 12:41 AM
I'd just laugh at him and say "good luck".
I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.
AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
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July 25th, 2010 12:52 AM
Exactly. My kids are older (11 and 7), but I would have no choice but to go ballistic if someone threatened one of them.
Originally Posted by Back 40
"I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."
July 25th, 2010 01:04 AM
+1 on that and it seems that any time I go to a restaurant alone they immediately want to seat me close to the loudest most obnoxious rug rats in there. Rather than having to listen to that I will ask to be seated elsewhere.
Originally Posted by shockwave
When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
"Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."
July 25th, 2010 01:34 AM
Yup. "What you think is going to happen, isn't. Be smart and mind your own business."
Originally Posted by HotGuns
Any aggressive move towards my son is met with a world of pain no human should have to endure. Ask the guy that grabbed my son's arm in the grocery store. He's in jail. Been there since he got out of the hospital the week before the trial. Still had my hand print bruises around his throat. Still don't know what was funnier, his lips turning blue or his eyes bugging out of his head as he realized he made a colossal failure of messing with the wrong father who is now pointing a gun barrel to his eyeball. Support hand went around his throat and pushed him backward while my weapon hand drew metal and pressed it into his eyeball. Darwin was a mere twitch of a finger away.
07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006
Probably the only home based FFL that doesn't do transfers.
July 25th, 2010 02:02 AM
As a patron I should not have to endure the screeching of a child unless I'm in a pre-school or some such place that I will never attend willingly.
Originally Posted by shockwave
There is a time and place for everything, and a restaurant is not the time, nor the place, to endure such a thing. I think is behooves the parents, breeders, or whatever they want to be called, to remove the offending child quickly and promptly. With that said, I think anyone that threatens violence towards the child needs to also be dealt with. The best way to do that is to alert the staff on duty, as already suggested.
Too many people run around thinking their child is precious and "special". Maybe to them, but not to me, and I shouldn't be forced to endure typical child behavior in an adult setting. I have no problem complaining about a child's behavior to the same on duty staff, and am not hesitant to do so.
July 25th, 2010 02:09 AM
I normally agree with you in lock step. On this one you are so far off. If you don't want to have to deal with children or "breeders" go to a bar where children are not allowed. If you are in a public place get used to it. I do agree that children should be removed if they are causing a scene but to believe that your rights trump anyone elses to be in a public resturant is a little alarming.
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