The Supermarket

This is a discussion on The Supermarket within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Treo He's putting on a ski mask and carrying a shotgun how much more "threat" do you need ? While I understand ...

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Thread: The Supermarket

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    He's putting on a ski mask and carrying a shotgun how much more "threat" do you need ?
    While I understand your point, I at least want to give the guy a chance to give up. With OP's description he hasn't killed anyone, yet. He has demonstrated capacity for violence. I couldn't in good conscience just not give him any chance to surrender at all, though if he declines my offer I'd shoot without hesitation. That's just me.
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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post

    you see a guy walk past the end of the aisle (from left to right) toward the back corner of the market, pulling a ski mask down over his face. He is wearing a three-quarter length coat, but you can see a shotgun sticking out below the coat down next to his right leg. You didn't notice if his right hand was in his coat pocket
    Reviewing this scenario and 'pasting' myself into it, my first thought is that in July here in AZ the 3/4-length coat and ski mask would be a dead giveaway...

    Beyond that - the timing drives a lot. If the guy isn't rushing to the office, then there may be time to call 911 and alert them to what's going on, and I'd leave the line open. If time doesn't allow, then I don't see a lot of options to shadowing the BG and being ready to shoot him down - hopefully from behind - the moment he presents his weapon. Meanwhile the head is on the swivel looking for the BG's backups and accomplices. (Obviously leaving a lot of details out.)
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  4. #18
    Member Array Back 40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    He's putting on a ski mask and carrying a shotgun how much more "threat" do you need ?
    Because I don't want to have to explain to the jury that I "thought" he was a threat. I agree we all know that he's up to no good but I really don't want to risk everything I have worked for and the roof over my childs head. It would be a really bad thing if it were a terrible joke gone wrong. I would rather be a little cautious.

  5. #19
    Member Array carguy2244's Avatar
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    Assume a position with my back to a wall or aisle IF POSSIBLE (while he's known as a solo operator, I can't take this as a fact). Draw my weapon, take aim at upper torso, firm command to drop and spread and push weapon aside immediately. Any movements other than that, I fire my weapon until all movement has stopped. If he complies 100%, I keep him in my sights, and have someone else call 911. Until he's in cuffs or a bag, my front sight and the sight picture of his head are bread and butter.

  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Back 40 View Post
    Because I don't want to have to explain to the jury that I "thought" he was a threat. I agree we all know that he's up to no good but I really don't want to risk everything I have worked for and the roof over my childs head. It would be a really bad thing if it were a terrible joke gone wrong. I would rather be a little cautious.
    "Because I don't want to have to explain to the jury that I "thought" he was a threat" I can understand that thought process BUT "I really don't want to risk everything I have worked for and the roof over my childs head" My thought on that statement is if you go into a fight thinking risk of losing everything or what the jury is going to say then it may be best to not being the fight in the first place. There is no room for other thoughts in your mind while trying to stay alive.

    Once I deside to go to battle I want to think of nothing else. You can battle the DA and the what if's later! While I am fighting not getting hit and staying alive is my biggest concern
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  7. #21
    Member Array CyanLite's Avatar
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    This is an easy one. Get in a position to engage him from behind without cross-fire problems. Order him to drop the gun in a commanding voice. If he makes the slightest flinch "non-complying" move or if he fails to drop the gun withiin a reasonable timeframe, I begin to shoot while mostly likely ducking for cover. Then I call 911 after the threat has been eliminated. You probably don't have much time to call beforehand because the threat is imminent. I'd hate to be trying to dial 911 from a touch-screen phone while a BG is about to drop my sister-in-law or is actively firing at me.

    So you ask why do I open fire when he has made no threatening move, but has not dropped the gun?
    1. Imminent threat with deadly weapon. He has refused to disarm.
    2. Imminent felony about to take place while using said deadly weapon.
    3. No opportunity to retreat (I have already "engaged" the BG, if I try to "run away" he would shoot me in the back)
    4. His refusal to disarm show his mental state. He is not going to give up. LEO may be several minutes away. It's either me or him, and I'm going to do whatever it takes to get back home.

    I would believe any DA/Grand-Jury would see my actions as reasonable because he failed to disarm himself when ordered to do so while about to commit a felony with a deadly weapon.

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    He's putting on a ski mask and carrying a shotgun how much more "threat" do you need ?
    Ok you have shown me the errors of my ways. I will come around the the corner. Do a Bruce Willis dive and roll, yell something really cool and empty my mag on him. Is that better?

    Oops did I mention that it was by brother in law trying to scare his wife. Oh yeah, what I thought was a "shotty" really wasn't.

    I'm just saying to take a second, And think. Is that all that crazy?

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Back 40 View Post
    Ok you have shown me the errors of my ways. I will come around the the corner. Do a Bruce Willis dive and roll, yell something really cool and empty my mag on him. Is that better?

    Oops did I mention that it was by brother in law trying to scare his wife. Oh yeah, what I thought was a "shotty" really wasn't.

    I'm just saying to take a second, And think. Is that all that crazy?
    Dressing up in a long coat, ski mask and with a fake shotgun after a string of robberies involving those items? Yes, yes it is crazy. It's also incredibly stupid, and I'd have no problem saying that to the face of someone stupid enough to try it.
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  10. #24
    Senior Member Array JohnK87's Avatar
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    You need to be sure of what you are seeing. If it is clearly a shotgun under the coat and the mask is going down and he's walking to the office, I'm at code red. Deadly force is authorized to protect innocent life (in the office.) I am not law enforcement, and I am under NO obligation to try and detain him or order him to drop his weapon. There are only two reasonable ways to handle this- call 911 and be a good witness, or shoot him in the back. IF I am fully convinced in what I saw and what is happening, and I decide to use my weapon to protect innocent life, I shoot him in the back of the head. I don't need to make it a fair fight, it wouldn't be pistol vs. shotgun anyway, and I intend to survive the encounter. Previous knowledge of the robberies, that he has shot people, and that he dresses and is armed that way all comes in to play when you're explaining why the BG was shot five times in the back.
    ‎An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnK87 View Post
    You need to be sure of what you are seeing. If it is clearly a shotgun under the coat and the mask is going down and he's walking to the office, I'm at code red. Deadly force is authorized to protect innocent life (in the office.) I am not law enforcement, and I am under NO obligation to try and detain him or order him to drop his weapon. There are only two reasonable ways to handle this- call 911 and be a good witness, or shoot him in the back. IF I am fully convinced in what I saw and what is happening, and I decide to use my weapon to protect innocent life, I shoot him in the back of the head. I don't need to make it a fair fight, it wouldn't be pistol vs. shotgun anyway, and I intend to survive the encounter. Previous knowledge of the robberies, that he has shot people, and that he dresses and is armed that way all comes in to play when you're explaining why the BG was shot five times in the back.
    I agree 100%. I'm not saying don't shoot. I'm just saying to be very sure what your shooting at.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by First Sgt View Post
    It appears, based on the OP, that in addition to maintaining my normal SA, I am aware of the recent incidents involving supermarket robberies. Therefore, as I am walking toward, and enter the market, my head is on a swivel. Based on the OP,I do notice as I am in the market that it is fairly busy. I am aware that my sister-in-law, who works at the market, is back in the office as I just got off the phone with her. While going down the aisle, I see a cross aisle, and passing in front of me is a male, in a long coat, pulling a ski mask down, and I notice a shotgun hanging out of the bottom of the coat on his right side, not knowing if hand is on the weapon or not, but most probably. I immediately go to Condition Red. Since I am aware of the previous robberies, the injuries, and he is heading toward the office where my sis-in-law is working, I immediately make the decision that I MUST engage. I draw, am in low ready, and get to the aisle intersection as quickly as possible. I step into the aisle behind him, he is approx 12 feet in front of me, his back to me, walking quickly toward the office. There has been NO time to flank him, NO time to dial 911 before making my decision to take action. I immediately take aim, challenge him to stop as he is covered by my weapon. IF he stops, I will continue instructions. Chances are he does not stop, and will be turning with shotgun rising as he turns. At the first sign he is turning and raising the shotgun beneath his coat, I am IMMEDIATELY firing and Getting Off The X. I will shoot until I am sure the threat is STOPPED. At that point I will do an emergency reload, keep my weapon at low ready in his direction, and get to my cell phone, dial 911, explain there has been an extremely violent incident at the supermarket, ask they send an ambulance and responding officers, tell them that I am armed, describe my appearance, and will stay on the phone awaiting their instructions. In this scenario, my sis-in-law as well as the other patrons in the market were in extreme danger based on the robber's previous violent gun history. I made my decision and acted. That is MY response...JMO
    I have to go with First Sgt as the most complete and appropriate solution.

    In this situation, the time frame does not allow for calling 911 befor engaging and I personally don't want to be putzing with my phone or the dispatcher when I am about to engage in a gunfight. Even with a 3-5 minute eta, which is fast, odds are that it will over long befor they get there anyway.

    I, as some have stated, would like to just take him out, but I personally could not do that in this particular situation without a call. The advantage provided is sufficient, IMO, to give him one chance to live.

    Dropping his weapon may not be possible without removing his coat if he is wearing a shoulder sling.

  13. #27
    Member Array CyanLite's Avatar
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    What if he refuses to drop his gun?

  14. #28
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    [QUOTE=CyanLite;1718924]What if he refuses to drop his gun

    That would probably be one of his last mistakes.

  15. #29
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    Per the O.P. and no modifications. He's 12ft. away and doesn't know I'm there? I would shoot him in the right shoulder. At 12ft. anyone better be able to make that shot. If you're not carry a designer caliber that should take away his ability to use the shotgun. If not,empty the mag.

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    If he chooses to surrender and follow instructions I don't see a problem. He drops the shotgun of if he says the shotgun is slung, having him raise his hands (thereby extracting his hand from the pocket), the shotgun will hang via the speed sling. If he continues to follow instructions, I don't see either way as a problem.
    If he just refuses to drop it, if you want to be super generous, repeat the order giving him five seconds to comply or you will shoot him. I will bet that he will drop it or make a move. In either case the problem is solved.

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