The Supermarket

This is a discussion on The Supermarket within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This might shock some people to the point of a Heart attack but I will not be worried about repercussions at the time I can ...

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Thread: The Supermarket

  1. #31
    Member Array Thegear234's Avatar
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    This might shock some people to the point of a Heart attack but I will not be worried about repercussions at the time I can deal with the DA later on right now I have FAMILY in danger and that SOB is going down I wll call out to him once to drop the weapon and depending on what he does he either gives up or one or both of us dies there. I refuse to live in fear I WILL not be a victim and like I have been told by a very respectable man and training instructor make them fear you don't you live in fear!
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  3. #32
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    Call 911, then brace yourself against one of the aisles and take careful aim towards the exit position from the manager's office. Next put a toothpick in your mouth, and put your sunglasses on (even if it's nighttime). Wait...
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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by First Sgt View Post
    It appears, based on the OP, that in addition to maintaining my normal SA, I am aware of the recent incidents involving supermarket robberies. Therefore, as I am walking toward, and enter the market, my head is on a swivel. Based on the OP,I do notice as I am in the market that it is fairly busy. I am aware that my sister-in-law, who works at the market, is back in the office as I just got off the phone with her. While going down the aisle, I see a cross aisle, and passing in front of me is a male, in a long coat, pulling a ski mask down, and I notice a shotgun hanging out of the bottom of the coat on his right side, not knowing if hand is on the weapon or not, but most probably. I immediately go to Condition Red. Since I am aware of the previous robberies, the injuries, and he is heading toward the office where my sis-in-law is working, I immediately make the decision that I MUST engage. I draw, am in low ready, and get to the aisle intersection as quickly as possible. I step into the aisle behind him, he is approx 12 feet in front of me, his back to me, walking quickly toward the office. There has been NO time to flank him, NO time to dial 911 before making my decision to take action. I immediately take aim, challenge him to stop as he is covered by my weapon. IF he stops, I will continue instructions. Chances are he does not stop, and will be turning with shotgun rising as he turns. At the first sign he is turning and raising the shotgun beneath his coat, I am IMMEDIATELY firing and Getting Off The X. I will shoot until I am sure the threat is STOPPED. At that point I will do an emergency reload, keep my weapon at low ready in his direction, and get to my cell phone, dial 911, explain there has been an extremely violent incident at the supermarket, ask they send an ambulance and responding officers, tell them that I am armed, describe my appearance, and will stay on the phone awaiting their instructions. In this scenario, my sis-in-law as well as the other patrons in the market were in extreme danger based on the robber's previous violent gun history. I made my decision and acted. That is MY response...JMO
    I have to agree with First Sgt. and believe he is 100% correct. I would likely have done pretty much the exact same thing. Whether you are a LEO or not, I think it's pretty clear as the scenario was presented that this dude is the guy in all the other armed robberies, including the one where he shot the manager with the 12 ga. at close range. I don't think there's any wavering on that.

    One important thing I'll mention and why I believe First Sgt is correct. Because the guy had his back to me and had not "engaged" anyone as of yet, I feel it was prudent to issue him a "challenge command" to freeze and prone him out. He hasn't seen you, you are behind him, you have the advantage, you have your gun out and have drawn a bead on him. Any false move and you blast away and keep on blasting until the threat is terminated. I would have done the same thing, and only because he had yet to engage anyone.

    However, and I'll be clear, had the guy already engaged anyone in the store, I would have re-evaluated the situation and if prudent to do so, I would have shot him down without saying a word to him.

    Whenever you shoot someone, always, always, always request an ambulance! It shows compassion and a lack of callousness. First Sgt. did and it was proper to do so.

    We all know, if this turned out not to be an armed robber, we would all be in a world of misery, but Guantes essentially left no wiggle room and I feel it would be a righteous shoot! And the correct thing to do.

    In this case in particular, before the police arrive you need to drink a big hot cup of "Shut The Hell Up!" This is likely going to take your attorney to help you articulate how you thought through the immediate threat to life and your decision making process! We all know how we came to the conclusion we came to, but having your attorney help you articulate it in your formal statement will be critical!

    btw... being only 12 feet away from the BG and having the element of surprise at that point, I don't think it's prudent to call 911 first!

    Ever been on the phone with a 911 operator in a critical situation such as this one? They will be asking a million and one questions, and giving you advice not to engage him based on no real experience what so ever, and you'll likely end up getting into an argument with them. And it will all be recorded. Plus, you would likely reveal yourself to the BG and blow any tactical advantage you had by trying to call 911 at that point. Calling 911 first is a distraction you can't afford to have at this point when you need to be focused on what's happening in front of you!

    Best to do what needs to be done first, and then call 911 afterward when you can control the conversation and not stand a chance of being killed by the BG while you're on the phone.

    If asked why you didn't call 911 first, your attorney will probably explain that "exigent circumstances" existed in this case. Which is why you need to get your attorney involved immediately.

    Great Scenario Guantes!

    And Excellent Response First Sgt.!!!
    Last edited by Bark'n; July 30th, 2010 at 01:47 AM. Reason: typo
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Thanks Bark'n.
    I thought it would provide some useful discussion points.
    I agree re First Sgt's response and your addendum.

  6. #35
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    I think its pretty much all been said but I'll give my .02 anyway

    Based on the OP he is only 30' from the office so there is not enough time to call 911 unless you have them on speed dial. Being behind him you have a very clear advantage. Draw and challenge him very clearly and very loudly to get others attention. If he doesn't immediately freeze and completely comply with every command given then he is a deadly threat. If he turns to engage you then engage him first while moving away from his turn (he is in front of you doing a 180 degree turn clockwise you cover towards your left so he has further to turn.)
    If he complies then disarm him if possible, if not then keep him proned on the ground with his hands directly above his head and have someone else call 911. As soon as LEO's enter the building comply with every order given and shut up until you have a lawyer. Even when you have done everything 100% correctly always wait until your lawyer is present to say anything.
    JMO

  7. #36
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    Since he is walking away from me I'd charge him with the carriage and knock him on his feet. You ever been hit with one from behind? They hurt! I'd already have my gun drawn in case he hears me and turns to shoot. I just hope I don't have the one carriage with the wobbly wheel.


    Well at least thats what I would do if I was in a Hollywood movie.

  8. #37
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    Throw a frozen turkey at him.

  9. #38
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    I'd call 911 leaving the phone on and try to come up behind the BG before he got to the office make him go prone and disarm him.If he tried to pull shotgun on me 911 would hear my commands telling him to drop it hearing my shooting was in self defense hopefully.keeping the 911 cal open would have everything recorded and would be evidence in my behalf.

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECHOONE View Post
    I'd call 911 leaving the phone on and try to come up behind the BG before he got to the office make him go prone and disarm him.If he tried to pull shotgun on me 911 would hear my commands telling him to drop it hearing my shooting was in self defense hopefully.keeping the 911 cal open would have everything recorded and would be evidence in my behalf.
    At average walking speed, you have about 8-10 seconds befor he reaches the door (30' away) to the office. In that time you are going to get your phone, dial 911, get a connection, draw, come up behind the susp and order him to the ground befor he reaches the office door?
    That in addition to the fact that the closer he gets to the office door the more it reduces your potential safe shot angles.

  11. #40
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    Dial 911 and leave. Never liked my sister-in-law, anyhow.

    Or you can discretely follow him, and the second he raises the shotgun, pop a cap in the back of his head.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  12. #41
    Senior Member Array JohnK87's Avatar
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    NEVER shoot to 'wound.' Shoot to stop. If you get to the point that you can use deadly force, shoot and keep shooting until the threat is stopped.

    My reason for not warning him is that with my typical carry pistol, "one shot stops" are not guaranteed and I don't want to get in a close-quarters battle with a shotgun.
    ‎An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    One shot stops are not guaranteed with any pistol round.
    While it would not be my choice, I think that your position could be justified without too much difficulty, due to the threat level.

  14. #43
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    He fits the description of the BG,he has pulled a ski mask over his face and is now heading toward the office,I'm gonna draw and tell slick to turn around,with his back to me.I'm gonna yell for the employees to call the Cops, I am going to order him to very slowly raise his hands above his head,I'm now gonna move my position,if he tries to draw or spin and shoot,I'm not where he last saw me hopefully giving me the advantage to take him down.If he follows my orders I'm gonna put him face down with his arms out and palms facing up ,then have him raise and cross his legs at the ankles,and then ,if he tries to get up he has to rotate palms and uncross his legs first,giving me a headsup,
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
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  15. #44
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    You've got the drop on him, he meets the description of the BG you read about, he has the means (shotgun), you know he will shoot. I'm not dialing 911 either, I going to get the drop on him give him a fair chance to drop the weapon in a loud enough voice so every can hear from a decent cover position or the best I can get to in a short amount of time. The choice is his after that. Any move to draw or bring that shotgun into play with force me without hesitation to shoot his arse. Afterall, she's your sister-in-law, not mother-in-law.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  16. #45
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnK87 View Post
    NEVER shoot to 'wound.' Shoot to stop. If you get to the point that you can use deadly force, shoot and keep shooting until the threat is stopped.

    My reason for not warning him is that with my typical carry pistol, "one shot stops" are not guaranteed and I don't want to get in a close-quarters battle with a shotgun.
    [I] didn't mean it to sound as if I'm shooting to wound. Shooting someone in the back through the shoulder with a service caliber is going to stop the fight. If it doesn't, then I have more bullets to dispense. Remember this is happening at 12ft. If you can't make that shot maybe you need more practice.

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