The Supermarket

The "sister-in-law" part is the one twist that makes this much more complicated, so I'll give a two-fold answer:

1. No sister-in-law involved: Step away and out the exit if possible, call 911 and tell them what you just saw.

2. Sister-in-law involved: leave your shopping cart or put down the items in your hand, tail the guy so you can hopefully walk in behind him as he approaches the sis-in-law. If he starts to pull the shotgun on her, shoot him (preferably in the head) but make sure no one else is in the line of fire.

If I saw the BG pulling on the mask, and it was family in the office, if I could maneuver to intercept him, he would get it while trying to pull out the shotgun.

Well, this is a hard one, I don't really like my sister in law so ......... :confused:

Special thanks to First Sgt and follow-up by Bark'n. Well Done!

However, to carry a bit further on, why assume that the perp isn't wearing body armor? More and more BGs are using it, in the commission of a crime. If you have the money, and the contacts, it's available.

I'd go with the first posters mentioned here, and when in position to challenge and engage, assume two handed stance, if possible, then if perp doesn't yield, go for the head. Period.

I carry Glocks- a 21 and 30, at all times when out, one or the other, at home. Both are .45acp, and loaded with Winchester PDX1 ammo. (Home invasions are on the rise here.) I've used .45acp for forty years, and though I've used/carried both lighter and heavier calibers, the .45acp is my personal favorite.

All that being said, Clint Smith said, "Your pistol is what you use, to get back to the rifle or shotgun you shouldn't have put down in the first place..." NO pistol is as effective as a "guaranteed" one stop shot to COM... A bullet transferring the skull, and its contents, to destroy the brain stem, IS a one shot stop. NOT a guaranteed shot, with a pistol, but better than COM, if you only have seconds, are in the ideal position, and have the drop on the perp.

IF you have to pop the cap, shoot until the threat is totally neutralized.

NEVER shoot to wound. As I postulated, he may be wearing body armor. At best you'll irritate him. Worst? You're dead, and so are innocents.

Again, go back and read First Sgt's and Bark'n's posts, and add in the possibility of body armor, and then think of how you'd act. I don't think their posts can be improved.

GlockMan1949, out...

Welcome. I think that you should due a little research on body armor. Yes if worn it can save a life but being shot by a service caliber is not a irritation.

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Originally Posted by GlockMan1949

Special thanks to First Sgt and follow-up by Bark'n. Well Done!

However, to carry a bit further on, why assume that the perp isn't wearing body armor? More and more BGs are using it, in the commission of a crime. If you have the money, and the contacts, it's available.

I'd go with the first posters mentioned here, and when in position to challenge and engage, assume two handed stance, if possible, then if perp doesn't yield, go for the head. Period.

I carry Glocks- a 21 and 30, at all times when out, one or the other, at home. Both are .45acp, and loaded with Winchester PDX1 ammo. (Home invasions are on the rise here.) I've used .45acp for forty years, and though I've used/carried both lighter and heavier calibers, the .45acp is my personal favorite.

All that being said, Clint Smith said, "Your pistol is what you use, to get back to the rifle or shotgun you shouldn't have put down in the first place..." NO pistol is as effective as a "guaranteed" one stop shot to COM... A bullet transferring the skull, and its contents, to destroy the brain stem, IS a one shot stop. NOT a guaranteed shot, with a pistol, but better than COM, if you only have seconds, are in the ideal position, and have the drop on the perp.

IF you have to pop the cap, shoot until the threat is totally neutralized.

NEVER shoot to wound. As I postulated, he may be wearing body armor. At best you'll irritate him. Worst? You're dead, and so are innocents.

Again, go back and read First Sgt's and Bark'n's posts, and add in the possibility of body armor, and then think of how you'd act. I don't think their posts can be improved.

GlockMan1949, out...

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Gee, I never thought of that... So If I can't shoot the guy in the head, I should run out to the car and get my AR?... No wait, I forgot, The APC is at home, I'll go get that. And thanks for pointing out the correct answers in this thread... I might have missed them.

Welcome to the forum!

Hi 21bubba,

Thanks for the welcome!

No, taking a hit from a service pistol isn't a "love-tap." The physics of the thing doesn't equate with what's seen in movies, like Bruce Willis' "Last Man Standing..." If it did, we'd only issue 1911 equivalents, and all the ammo anyone could carry...

Flak jackets, I know how they can protect against a pistol bullet. Never saw body armor 40 years ago. Did they have it then? Anyway, in this case, the perp could be on a veritable cornucopia of drugs, his own adrenalin, or be just plain psycho. Any of those listed, or combination thereof, would be enough to shrug-off anything less than a .50BMG round... True, that's a worst case scenario, but isn't that what we were trained to anticipate, and eliminate?

Military I know, have only heard/read about/and from LEOs and their experiences. I'm NOT a fan of two to COM, one to the head. If there's one BG/perp, shot him to the ground. If more, greatest threat to least threat. With the .45acp, the need for double taps, as in 9mm or so, decreases, and gives greater latitude in response possibilities. As always, placement is paramount...

I'm not denigrating the shot placement/terminal effects of service ammunition- it's all we can carry concealed, and I'm sure not getting any younger... We use what we've got- isn't that always the case in self defense? Techniques/weapons employment and tactics evolve, and sometimes, so must we- at a moment's notice, if necessary...

Hi oakchas,

I'm all in favor of giving the BG a splitting headache... Opening his cranium for inspection is always a good, if messy, way of doing so... I didn't mean to give the impression that only First Sgt and Bark'n as having the only right answers. There were many such- those were just the first two to stick to my formerly military mind.

Call me a Neanderthal, a drooling, knuckle dragging fool that can't see beyond the beautiful physics of threat removal. I'm a simple man, and look for the most direct methodology, when it comes to doing what is necessary. It's in the subtleties of multiple targets, shifting environments, the unrelenting toil of threat assessment, that I now get weary. As I've gotten older, perhaps my level of patience has waned, and responses to the proffered scenario may lead me to be more direct, less circumspect, than some would like. So, too, my method of communicating my thoughts...

Once, I was very active. Now, being partially disabled at age 60, I husband my resources. It is because of my awareness of my limitations, that my decision trees are necessarily truncated, relatively straight forward, and unambiguous. If threatened, I will respond, with restraint, at first. If pushed with deadly force intended against me, mine, or other innocents, I will respond- to the removal of the threat, without hesitation, without remorse. Period.

If I could carry one of my ARs, concealed, legally, I would. Likewise, my Remington 870 Desert Recon II, with its bells and whistles. Alas, no joy. Both are a real chore to carry, much less employ now. For them, it's garrison duty- home defense. Wish I could afford to own, let alone use, an APC... Rather have a Panhard or Saladin, myself...

Wasn't being "personal," as regards to who I didn't name as giving good answers. As stated above, there were lots of them. As to which I'd go with? I'd still stick with the ones I listed, as I'd like to think that I "think" the same way that they do... Direct action is sometimes the only way. The decision processes involved may last only a few seconds. Training and experience are what we devolve to in times of extreme stress. It's what you could call "hard wired," for its what is "programmed" into us. Sometimes, it is what keeps us alive...

People, places, things, situations, environments- all are different, in all, or combinations of any of those listed, that we may face in direst circumstances. As a friend of mine was fond of saying, "Improvise, adapt, and overcome." Those that fail to do so, may lose their lives, or worse, the lives of those who count upon them. Sir Issac Newton was right on the Law of the Conservation of Energy. In human terms, in combat, that can even be simplified. Actions have consequences. It's up to us, to take the "right" actions. Hesitation, or acting "wrongly," can mean catastrophe or death.

Thanks for the welcome.

GlockMan1949, out...

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Originally Posted by paaiyan

If I have time to call 911 before he reaches the office I call while drawing and moving, quietly give a super fast location and sitrep and put the phone in my pocket, still connected.

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+1 ^^^This first, the rest would be responsive to the situation as it develops.

This has always been my strategy. These calls are always recorded and will be proof/evidence in court. I want my "version" recorded as much as possible. Given the prevalence of CCTV cameras in our society (especially in Grocery Stores) it provides another means to verify your account.

Family is almost irrelevent. I'd do something for anyone if I felt that lives were being threatened.

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Originally Posted by Guantes

There have been several recent scenarios with shoot don’t shoot options, here is another one.


The Supermarket


In recent weeks there have been three super market robberies in your area. The suspect is always the same, a male with a three-quarter length coat, ski mask and a shotgun. In one robbery he became enraged at the small amount of cash in the office and shot the manager, leaving him in critical condition.

You’re alone in the super market picking up a few things at the Mrs. request. You are pushing your cart down an aisle near the back corner of the market, with no one between you and the approaching cross aisle.

The cross aisle is backed by a solid wall and open cooler cases. It is mid afternoon so the market is moderately busy. About 10’ from the end of the aisle you see a guy walk past the end of the aisle (from left to right) toward the back corner of the market, pulling a ski mask down over his face. He is wearing a three-quarter length coat, but you can see a shotgun sticking out below the coat down next to his right leg. You didn't notice if his right hand was in his coat pocket (pocket maybe cut away to reach weapon).

He is headed in the direction of the office, which is in the back corner. As you reach the end of the aisle, you see him about twelve feet from you, near the back wall, continuing away from you toward the office, which is thirty feet away on the perpendicular corner wall. There is no one between you and him or the office. The Asst. Mgr. is in the office (you spoke to her in the office a few minutes earlier, she is doing paperwork and the door is not locked) and is your wife's sister. You have your cell phone. You are carrying your usual. Local laws allow citizen intervention in the case of a misdemeanor or a felony.

What do you do?

For those who would be so kind, explain the thinking behind your actions.

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If I'm behind him, kneel down, off to the side or behind concealment/cover and issue "The Challenge" by telling him in a command voice, "DON'T MOVE!"

My response from this point will be determined by his actions.

I will not be alerting the local constabulary and will not be fiddle farting with my cell phone at this time. My voice will be enough to alert an ear witness. If he stops, and doesn't turn to face me, my next command will make it plainly clear to all within earshot that he has a weapon. If he does not heed my command the gunshots will do enough to alert the auditory witnesses.

If this is someone's idea of a joke, all I can say is, given the knowledge of the recent robberies, and the fact that he's acting like a robber gives me reasonable cause to suspect he is a robber. You know what they say about walking like a duck and quacking like a duck during duck season.

Biker

Can I just be the brutally honest one here and say that I HAVE NO IDEA what I would do.

It has been almost two years since I've been in a grocery store without my son and I can't just leave him to try to save someone else. He is my first responsibility.

Call 911? Sure, YES! But as stated this is going to be over LONG before they get there.

And if family is truly involved I would, indeed, feel compelled to do SOMETHING.

The truth of the matter is that he's not after me and as hard as it sounds I don't think I could decide what to do in time if my life or the life of my son was not immediately in danger. There are risks on both sides.

For instance, if I miss and he turns and shoots, what if he has buck shot in there and me and my son get a good dose of 00? Imagine how badly I would feel if I got my son killed because I tried to save someone else and got shot in the process.

Another part of me wants to say I'd push my son to a safe place while screaming, "FIRE! Oh my goodness there's a fire!" at the top of my lungs. Maybe it would scare him off. Who wants to be robbing a place that might be burning to the ground where authorities are SURELY on their way?

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Originally Posted by limatunes

For instance, if I miss and he turns and shoots, what if he has buck shot in there and me and my son get a good dose of 00? Imagine how badly I would feel if I got my son killed because I tried to save someone else and got shot in the process.

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Lima, I think in your situation with a toddler in tow, it's a no brainer. You don't get involved! You very quietly escape from the store with your son! At the range the bad guy is in this scenario, it really doesn't matter if he's got buck shot or any other kind of load. A 12 ga. blast with just about any load at 20 feet can be expected to be lethal. It sure as hell doesn't have to be "double aught."

Limatunes,

First sorry for the late response, been trout fishing for a week in the Sierra's with the grandkids and family.

I agree with Bark'n, especially with little ones, you take care of your own. I personally know of several incidents of regulars or reserves who intervened in robberies and got their kids killed. Hard to live with.