There have been several recent scenarios with shoot don’t shoot options, here is another one.
In recent weeks there have been three super market robberies in your area. The suspect is always the same, a male with a three-quarter length coat, ski mask and a shotgun. In one robbery he became enraged at the small amount of cash in the office and shot the manager, leaving him in critical condition.
You’re alone in the super market picking up a few things at the Mrs. request. You are pushing your cart down an aisle near the back corner of the market, with no one between you and the approaching cross aisle.
The cross aisle is backed by a solid wall and open cooler cases. It is mid afternoon so the market is moderately busy. About 10’ from the end of the aisle you see a guy walk past the end of the aisle (from left to right) toward the back corner of the market, pulling a ski mask down over his face. He is wearing a three-quarter length coat, but you can see a shotgun sticking out below the coat down next to his right leg. You didn't notice if his right hand was in his coat pocket (pocket maybe cut away to reach weapon).
He is headed in the direction of the office, which is in the back corner. As you reach the end of the aisle, you see him about twelve feet from you, near the back wall, continuing away from you toward the office, which is thirty feet away on the perpendicular corner wall. There is no one between you and him or the office. The Asst. Mgr. is in the office (you spoke to her in the office a few minutes earlier, she is doing paperwork and the door is not locked) and is your wife's sister. You have your cell phone. You are carrying your usual. Local laws allow citizen intervention in the case of a misdemeanor or a felony.
What do you do?
For those who would be so kind, explain the thinking behind your actions.
Dial 911 first, but since she is family I am compelled to at least look after her welfare myself as well.
One thing for a fact, I ain't wasting time with 911.
We know that the guy can and will shoot. More than likely the back office either dosent have the cash or they have it in a safe. There is too much potential to go wrong here and it can all happen in the blink of an eye.
*My impression* from the OP is that this is a hardened, experienced, cool bg. I'm not sure how and where I would find true cover quickly in that type of store. I think that if I draw and challenge him, he will take his chances and either...take cover/concealment and shoot at me OR take his chances and bolt towards the office and take woman hostage.
I believe that with this experienced bg, he will take action, not be intimidated by a drawn weapon. And you cannot shoot him unless he has someone else or you at gunpoint.
Quietly going to the front door and preventing anyone (shoppers) else from entering or looking for a driver would be a good idea, as well as removing myself from becoming a hostage or getting caught in the crossfire.
P.S. I dont have a wife and I live 3000 miles from *all* my relatives. And they all live in NJ where I wouldnt be able to carry.
If this was my family I would call 911 if there were time. By the sounds of this thre wouldn't so I'm afraid that the BG is about to get perforated if he does anything that would be interpreted as a threat.
+1 on the above
Originally Posted by HotGuns
This is a family member, in my state you can protect your family or any other individual. You have seen the shotgun. You draw, give the stop command if he doesnt comply, well lets just say, lead will be flying.
I was a little flip in my earlier post, but obviously, adding the family member pretty much negates everything else included in the OP scenario. Little else matters...not bg's gunpower, if there are innocent bystanders, if there is zero cover, personal safety...very little will make any difference, probably not even multiple bgs...nearly all posters will engage the bg. I'd say at least 95% of all posters claim that protection of self and family comes first, period. (Myself included)
It sounds like I have the opportunity to get behind him. If I have time to call 911 before he reaches the office I call while drawing and moving, quietly give a super fast location and sitrep and put the phone in my pocket, still connected. If no time I just continue with the rest of the plan and have someone else call once it's under control. I make my best attempt to get behind him without him noticing. If I succeed I take aim at his cranium. My first instruction to him is to stop and that if he moves in a way I don't tell him to I will shoot, and that's a promise I intend to make good on.
If he's got the gun in hand he's instructed to raise one hand in the air slowly and hold the gun out to the side with the other. Stoop down and drop it gently. Then get him against a wall, back still to me, hands well above his head. I make no attempt to restrain him, nor do I allow anyone else to. I'm not letting him take a hostage.
If the gun isn't in his hands I instruct him to put both in the air and get on the wall. I don't care if it's still hanging on his hip, it's not dangerous there and he should know that if he goes for it he gets shot. Again, I make no attempt to restrain him, nor do I allow anyone else to.
If he moves too quickly or does anything besides what I tell him, I put holes where they don't belong.
Interesting senario, But I noted a couple of things that need to be addressed in the responses. As a retired LEO I have run this or a very similar senario in my mind many times. So here is my OPINION! (NOTE: this is my opinion only and does not represent any legal advice what so ever).
1. If you have a cell, you must call 911 and get LE headed towards the scene, then advise the dispatcher of the sitution and that you are on scend and armed. You do this if for no other reason than, any shooting on your part is going to require you to explain your self to LE, the DA and maybe the court and jury.
2. If and its a big if, you draw down on the BG with you in the advantagous position in the rear, then you put the BG on the ground prone with his hands away from his body, and his legs crossed. Then you stay away from him and keep him covered and advise the dispatcher to tell the responding LEO's what is going on.
3. If the BG gets to the office, you stay away. Irregardless of weather the asst. mgr is a family member you will worsen the situation if it becomes a stand off. Let SWAT take care of it.
4. IF you do shoot, first make sure the BG is down. Dis-arm the BG and leave his weapon on the ground and away from him (just in case he recovers) Then stay away from him. A lot of you here are not going to agree with me on this next one. Once the BG is down and dis-armed reholster your weapon and be prepared to comply with each and every demand of the responding LEO's and let them figure out what is going on. The best thing you can do for yourself is SHUT UP until you have your lawyer present, once your lawyer is present then give your statement under his or her supervision and shut up if your lawyer says to. Please remember that I give this advice based on my experience and training. I don't claim to an expert. The best shooting is the one your not involved in.
Since she is your wife's sister, deal with the threat and yell at someone to call 911. If you are in the store and no loved one present, then find an exit to retreat and then call 911 from a safe distance.
Looks like a scenario from Stallone's "Cobra". Sort of though (LOL). Everytime I think of a supermarket robbery scenario, reminds me of that movie.
It appears, based on the OP, that in addition to maintaining my normal SA, I am aware of the recent incidents involving supermarket robberies. Therefore, as I am walking toward, and enter the market, my head is on a swivel. Based on the OP,I do notice as I am in the market that it is fairly busy. I am aware that my sister-in-law, who works at the market, is back in the office as I just got off the phone with her. While going down the aisle, I see a cross aisle, and passing in front of me is a male, in a long coat, pulling a ski mask down, and I notice a shotgun hanging out of the bottom of the coat on his right side, not knowing if hand is on the weapon or not, but most probably. I immediately go to Condition Red. Since I am aware of the previous robberies, the injuries, and he is heading toward the office where my sis-in-law is working, I immediately make the decision that I MUST engage. I draw, am in low ready, and get to the aisle intersection as quickly as possible. I step into the aisle behind him, he is approx 12 feet in front of me, his back to me, walking quickly toward the office. There has been NO time to flank him, NO time to dial 911 before making my decision to take action. I immediately take aim, challenge him to stop as he is covered by my weapon. IF he stops, I will continue instructions. Chances are he does not stop, and will be turning with shotgun rising as he turns. At the first sign he is turning and raising the shotgun beneath his coat, I am IMMEDIATELY firing and Getting Off The X. I will shoot until I am sure the threat is STOPPED. At that point I will do an emergency reload, keep my weapon at low ready in his direction, and get to my cell phone, dial 911, explain there has been an extremely violent incident at the supermarket, ask they send an ambulance and responding officers, tell them that I am armed, describe my appearance, and will stay on the phone awaiting their instructions. In this scenario, my sis-in-law as well as the other patrons in the market were in extreme danger based on the robber's previous violent gun history. I made my decision and acted. That is MY response...JMO
+++++'s all the way with First Sgt post.
Since you know of the other robberies and his willingness to shoot you have to stop him before he gets to the office. I would like to slip in behind him and drop him without a word, but the DA would most likely not agree with that move. So you would need to get him to react in hostile way before you can shoot. Could this turn in to a nightmare stand-off or shoot-out (you bet it could) but at least you are armed and hopefully will keep the fight away from your sister-in-law. Because in my case she would be a unarmed sheep.
Originally Posted by First Sgt
He's putting on a ski mask and carrying a shotgun how much more "threat" do you need ?
Originally Posted by Back 40