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Not my job

10K views 156 replies 54 participants last post by  kpw 
#1 ·
I hear a lot of talk about "Rights" on these forums, but very little about duties and obligations. So I wanted to share this with all those who insist that standing up doing the right thing in the face of evil is not their job. Some go as far as being insulting making disparaging remarks about those that do stand up to stop an assault, robbery, rape or murder. There are those who proudly advocate running and hiding as if that is the honorable thing to do, again insulting anyone who would do otherwise. Remember all the snide insults thrown at Joe Horn when he stood up for his neighbors property. Not just by the media and Al Sharpton but by many on these boards as well.

I was raised differently. I was taught we are all citizens of a community and a nation. As citizens we have duties and obligations to each other. Being an American is not just about rights and privileges we are entitled to but also about responsibilities, duties and obligations to each other. Looking out for each other is our job, not the governments. Liberty and Freedom are not free.


Would be warriors in waiting Getting help when you need it
Sir Robert Peel, “The Father of Modern Policing.” proclaimed, “...the police are the public and the public are the police: the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties, which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interest of community welfare and existence.”

A History of Citizen Assistance
In 1966, on the University of Austin Campus there was a citizen, who assisted Ramiro Martinez and Houston McCoy, when they confronted Charles Whitman, the tower sniper.

In 1970 a citizen picked up one of the four downed officers’ guns and drove off their attackers with gun fire in Newhall California, where those four officers died.

There were citizens who assisted — and even gave their lives — alongside police officers and fire fighters at the World Trade Center on September 11th.

In 2007, inside a Wendy’s in Salt Lake City Eric Fullerton, a Vietnam Veteran and former member of the 101st Airborne Division disarmed and restrained a vicious cop killer and held him until officers arrived to arrest the suspect.
Obviously the article is talking about the REQUIREMENT of citizens to aid police when asked to do so. I of course am asserting that we are also REQUIRED to act in defense of others. If not by law than my moral obligation, national duty and honor, if being an American is to mean anything. That is what has always made America Great because we have, the best people on earth. Yes, we ARE better than the rest if we live up to what it is to be an American.

This me first. Standing by doing nothing, let the government police handle it IS what has brought this nation to where are today. WE, you and I are the ones responsible for the increasingly oppressive government and rampant crime that identifies our country today. Doing nothing makes us complicit in the crime and loss of liberty. The criminal depends upon citizens to aid and abet them by doing nothing. The government depends upon citizens wanting to be taken care of protected to justify stripping us of our liberties and rights.

Martin Luther King, Jr once said
Martin Luther King said:
"Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?' Expediency asks the question, 'Is it politic?' Vanity asks the question, 'Is it popular?' But, conscience asks the question, 'Is it right?'

And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but one must take it because... one's conscience tells one that it is right."
So when you see an evil act being committed before running away and hiding consider is it REALLY the RIGHT thing to do. Is it how you would want others to act if it was your wife, mother or daughter being victimized. Even that bone headed neighbor is an American and deserves to be treated with respect not only by the government but even more so by each of us.
 
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#36 ·
As for financial and legal problems after helping, that's very few and far between. Especially in states that protect like Florida and Texas and the many others. Most likely it's not going to happen. I've stated before that my Dad is an attorney and was high up in the LA County DA's office. I've asked him about this and he laughed and said that even out there (He's anything but the typical CA liberal) it's rare anymore that someone is sued while helping out. In the 80's though, he said he remembered many cases where the BG sued the home owner for medical bills, etc. That was then and not common now - relatively speaking. And that's in Los Angeles County.

I think it's a valid concern, but way over thought.

The problem here is nothing is black and white and I understand that. I think when I hear "in defense of another", I automatically think of a situation involving my child or Mother, etc. If I saw 2 guys going at it, I'd have no desire to get involved. If I saw some guy grabbing a child, I'd really want to get involved, but it could be a parent or many other situations. It's definitely a rough one. If I was at a bank and it was being robbed, seeing as only .01% end in violence, he can have the money.

If I was at church early in the morning setting up for a fundraiser and heard the 80-year-old nun screaming for help then saw someone trying to rape her, I'd give him more than a stern talking to.....this happened here a few months ago and the nun somehow pulled a door handle off of a closet door and beat him in the face and head. A couple guys setting up heard the commotion and came over and tuned him up and held him for police. I'm searching Google, but can't find it....it was at Most Precious Blood here in Corpus.

Biker, Retsupt, etc. I respect you guys, even you Biker after our go-arounds! This is such personal thing that you can't judge anyone on this, so that's not what this is... I completely understand not wanting to get involved, but if something happened like above and you heard an elderly woman / nun screaming for help, would you not help? I can't imagine that any of you wouldn't.

Treo, I can't tell you how many gun owners I now that get their CHL's and feel the need to tell everyone they see. I think it's definitely a power thing and many like the thought of being the rescuer/hero.. It's all about doing the right thing and to each of us, that may be completely different.
 
#37 ·
you heard an elderly woman / nun screaming for help, would you not help?
Only to the level I choose to.

Besides, while the nun beat the guy off, she probably felt bad about it and prayed for the SOB's soul. I don't bother praying for the souls of my enemies, and a nun raper is my enemy.

Biker
 
#40 ·
Sounds good to me...

A lot of times when I read a thread like this, I think of a clear cut, extreme example and it's obvious what most of us would do. I do understand the concern when it's not so clear cut..

Found the story. I guess it wasn't a nun, but a 77 year old woman who volunteers there - http://www.kiiitv.com/news/local/59227437.html?corder=reverse

This was a couple miles form my house and in a great neighborhood - at 7am. This is the stuff that gets me angry.
 
#38 ·
I read this once, and determined that these Virtues are those that would be good to follow in MY life. I make no pretense to be a Samurai. I'm too dang old! However, I have determined that I shall strive to do the best I can in life. Perhaps some of you might read these Virtues and see something of yourselves in one or more of them. This thread, as did the thread concerning children in restaurants, has amazed me as to the responses. I guess if I don't learn something daily, even if it's about my fellow human, then I'm walking around with my eyes closed and ear muffs on.

Virtues of a Samurai

I. Honesty and Justice
Be acutely honest throughout your dealings with all people. Believe in Justice, not from other people, but from yourself. To the true samurai, there are no shades of grey in the question of honesty and justice. There is only right and wrong.

II. Polite Courtesy
Samurai have no reason to be cruel. They do not need to prove their strength. A samurai is courteous even to his enemies. Without this outward show of respect, we are nothing more than animals. A samurai is not only respected for his strength in battle, but also by his dealings with other men.

III. Heroic Courage
Rise up above the masses of people who are afraid to act. Hiding like a turtle in a shell is not living at all. A samurai must have heroic courage. It is absolutely risky. It is dangerous. It is living life completely, fully, wonderfully. Heroic courage is not blind. It is intelligent and strong.

IV. Honor
A true samurai has only one judge of honor, and this is himself. Decisions you make and how these decisions are carried out are a reflection of whom you truly are. You cannot hide from yourself.

V. Compassion
Through intense training the samurai becomes quick and strong. He is not as other men. He develops a power that must be used for the good of all. He has compassion. He helps his fellow man at every opportunity. If an opportunity does not arise, he goes out of his way to find one.

VI. Complete Sincerity
When a samurai has said he will perform an action, it is as good as done. Nothing will stop him from completing what he has said he will do. He does not have to "give his word." He does not have to "promise." Speaking and doing are the same actions.

VII. Duty and Loyalty
For the samurai, having done some "thing" or said some "thing," he knows he owns that "thing." He is responsible for it, and all the consequences that follow. A samurai is immensely loyal to those in his care. To those he is responsible for, he remains fiercely true.
 
#39 ·
There are some extreme and very obvious examples out there, but sadly, many examples aren't so clear cut.

If I pulled up in my own yard and saw that some guy had knocked my door down and was walking away with my property, would I shoot him? No, unless he made a direct physical threat to me or my sons. Even if declared justified, I don't need 15 years of a legal headache, not to mention nightmares or the possibility of his friends or family coming after me, all over a stereo or some other possession. That's what insurance is for.

Conversely, if I pulled up somewhere and saw that some nut had an AK and was shooting kids on a playground, even though I knew no one involved, then yeah, I would unload on him if possible.

But unfortunately, a typical situation is more like.....you see where Stranger A is shooting at, hitting, throwing rocks at, or stabbing Stranger B, and this is where you had better watch yourself. Stranger A might be an undercover cop. Stranger B might have raped Stranger A's wife or daughter and you know nothing of it. It could simply be a drug deal gone bad and both have extensive criminal records. The bottom line is that you just don't know. Anyone can sit behind a computer screen and exude bravado, loudly proclaiming that "Well, if it were me, I WOULD....." But I would give extremely little regard to the opinion of an Internet poster from a prison cell.

Never forget that you are legally and morally responsible for any bullet that leaves any gun, issued by you. That's the bottom line.
 
#41 ·
What would you do if you were walking through a medical facility...and heard a horrible scream...

You go through a door, and there on the floor is a woman with a man on top of her with a knife...she has obviously been stabbed at least once and the man is raising his hand up with a knife apprently to stab her again...

What would you do???


http://wbztv.com/local/mass.general.hospital.2.1273746.html
 
#44 ·
It depends. Practically every medical facility in the country forbids weapons. So would I be carrying in this situation? Very unlikely. I think the best plan here is to call attention to what's happening and call 911 if possible. Remember that rape is an act of anger and/or domination. This might not be the case here, but the guy could easily kill the woman if you aren't careful.

As a side note..... I read once that the police in the old Bowery section of New York had a unique plan if they came upon a live rape scene: they would throw rocks at the perp. Seriously. That's because if they confronted him directly, he could break the victim's neck and kill her.
 
#42 ·
All good points. Thanks for all the different points of view. What comes to my mind is the many images of prisioners who out numbers their guards by 1000 to 1 and being systemically killed because they won't rush the guard. I realize this is an extreme example and fortunately I've never been in that position. I have mentioned that I proudly display my NRA stickers and reference the second ammendment on my license plate frame on my car. I even have Kimber stickers in view. Some say they would not do that. I believe, and you can feel differently if you choose, that a big problem with this nation is that people are afraid to stand up for what they believe. How many of us did not vote in the last election because it doen't make a difference? How many of us keep our legal ownership of guns on the down low because we don't want others to know or offend them. One of the reason stupid laws are passed is because good honest people don't want to rock the boat. Until enough people get angry enought to march on Washington (either at the ballot box or down the middle of the street) things will not get better. I will not drink the Koolaid, I will not get on the truck, I will not let some BG hurt me or others if I can help it. BG's depend on people not getting involved. A few guns changed the way the Nazi's killed the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto. Maybe, just maybe, if all who see me know I have guns and they know I will try to help society be safer, because of them, I can deter one act of crime. We act like we can do noting to stop all the insanity. I tell the manager of the burger joint I resent being waited by by some freak with huge tatoos and piercings in his lips. I respectively resist. I suggest you do the same. Good people are still the majority.
 
#45 ·
I once broke up a fight were a very drunk large man was beating on his very drunk small girlfriend. I am telling you he was BEATING her!!! I pushed him off and he lunged at me so I dropped him only to get slapped by her for hitting her boyfriend! When the police showed up the woman who I was helping complained that I beat up her boyfriend! The officer could obviously see what had happend and told the woman that he would arrest both her and her boyfriend on many charges if she wanted to persue the assult by me. In the end I walked away scott free and so did they, but It could have costed me EVERYTHING!!!!! Would I do it again??? YEP cuz thats what makes america great, our people!
 
#46 ·
That is good for you, to stand up for your convictions. But in today's sue happy, liberal minded society, I am not sticking up for anyone but my family, close friends, the elderly or children. The rest of you are on your own, you had the adult choice to arm and defend yourself and train, I am not going to do it for you unless me or my own are in danger.
 
#47 ·
It is nobodys job to defend anyone except the individual. However, in the perfect situation I would hope some would act. Im not wanting to get sued, but watching someone get hammered on, or even killed, is not me.
 
#48 ·
Both (or many) sides of this debate make many valid points. In todays society the good samaritian could easily find himslef in deep legal trouble with no public assistance to help with the fees. That is part of what the OP was getting at I think, or at least it's another area where our society may be slipping. Hero's used to be honored and respected, and communities took care of their own. There was no need for big brother to do it because your average joe blow man on the street was willing to step up and do what was right. I remember seeing old film footage of people cutting ice blocks out of the river here and hauling them into a storage building. These people were not empolyees of an ice company, but they knew if no one cut and hauled the ice, there wasn't going to be any come summer. It was just something communities did. Probably a lot of public property got repaired and built the same way.
 
#50 ·
I assume you've all heard of Kitty Genovese? This was the case that, although greatly exaggerated in the press, gave New Yorkers their reputation of, "don't get involved."

Also remember that we carry guns and a gun can be a very permanent solution to a problem, more so than fists or clubs or whatever. Therefore, it is highly critical that we think before we get involved.
 
#52 ·
, it is highly critical that we think before we get involved.
This cannot be said enough...

I don't look for situations to "get involved" in...but neither will I shy away if presented with one I feel I need to get involved in...

BUT, BEFORE I GET INVOLVED, I WILL THINK FIRST...and thinking takes practice...

JMHO....
 
#53 · (Edited)
I appreciate the quote from the Samurai Bushido. And, in all honesty, I could never live up to all of that... I have enough trouble with the 2 commandments.
I beliEve in doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do...
But, in the reality of today's world, doing that will just get me in trouble, broke, or dead.
And, while living as an example would surely be noble, few would take notice or change their lives because of it.
 
#55 ·
The problem with the OP's well intentioned ethical viewpoint is the old saying, "let no good deed go unpunished." Or, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." These are sadly truisms. There is a disconnect between what our morals might dictate and what the law, after the fact, might decide--- at its leisure over many days of study and review of your (our) split second decisions.

There have been a few times in my life when I have been in absolutely innocent situations which, had someone pushed to make me look guilty of something, could have easily been misconstrued as law breaking. At work I have almost gotten into big trouble trying to help others out. My preference still is to be a good person and do the right thing, but sometimes there is a high price for being righteous.

OTOH, we all know too well that the only thing which prevents evil is good people doing nothing.
 
#56 ·
Ask yourself why you carry a gun. Is it to be a semi-cop or to protect your family? When I started carrying I determined to educate myself on all aspects of it. I was fine in my innocence until reading about the ramifications of getting involved. The bottom line of ramifications is that I would not be protecting my family if I lost all our money, had my permit revoked, or went to prison because I tried to help somebody other than family. Many may think that can't happen if my actions were justified. Okay, lets say you're right, that I went to trial and was found not guilty. Well there goes another $50,000 in attorney fees - no wait, I don't have $50,000! So how does that protect my family?

Somebody asked how one might feel to go home and tell your family you were a good witness, but didn't attempt to stop the bad guy. I'd feel very fortunate to be home and not in jail or the morgue. I would consider that better than coming home and telling them I cost them $50,000 by attempting to help someone.

I'm in my late 60's and can tell you this country is very upside down on what's right and wrong. It should not cost to be a good citizen, but it does. QED!
 
#57 ·
Many valid points have been made on both sides of the issue.
I have only one comment.
As it is my dime, "I" will decide if, when, where and how I spend it.
What you do with your dime is up to you.
 
#58 ·
On the other hand...

Many people choose not to get involved because they don't have the proper tools to effect change. Those tools could be the gun, the ability to use it proficiently, or the forethought of what could or might be. They do not posses the mindset.

There are many people that carry a gun for self defense that do not have the Mindset. I would venture a guess that MOST people do not.

Now a days its all about me,me,me, and if you will not help a fellow man in need because you have you have some how justified in your mind refusing to do so, then in my opinion you are as worthless as mammary glands on a boar hog.

Yeah it might be dangerous, you might get killed. One thing I will not risk is giving an account of myself to the Creator on the of day for judgment for refusing to act when I was put there, at that moment of time, on that small space where we both occupy the same piece of planet and I had the means to help.

Yeah, I know I'll catch a lot of flack from those that refuse to help. Fact of the matter is, I don't care. If you are too sorry to help when you can, then you're not a whole lot lot better than the thug doing what ever it is he is doing.
 
#60 ·
I have put my butt on the line for others many times befor and if "I" decide so, I will do it again.
Of that I have no doubt.

You sir, are a man of action. I seriously doubt that you would stand idly by when you knew you could be the difference.

I hold no contemp for a man that cannot act or is smart enough to know his limitations. I do not honor a man that could be difference but chose to look the other way.

It's just not the way I was raised.
 
#61 ·
I don’t completely ignore the plight of my fellow man. I’ve bought tanks of gas for people I’ve bought meals for people, I’ve given homeless people a buck or two (doesn’t really help but it really doesn’t hurt either) I once drove a hitch hiker from Tucson to Walsenburg .

What I won’t do however is needlessly involve myself in any of the myriad of “I want to be a hero” threads that populate this sub forum. If, by my refusal, I earn the undying contempt of a moderator who I’ve never met in my life and who won’t contribute one dime to defray my expenses if I do, so what ?

I look in the mirror and I’m cool, I sleep like a rock and I’m completely ready to stand before my Creator and give account of my actions. Your (generic) opinion of me means zero
 
#62 ·
Seems we may have slight difference of opinion as to what defines "getting involved".
Calling 9-1-1 and being a good witness IS getting involved. Just because one chooses not to go 'great guns' doesn't mean one is not getting involved. One is involved as soon as one begins to mentally engage the situation and, let's say call 911. If the witnessing of an unlawful or suspicious act, and later recounting it results in a conviction or helps to solve a crime, then that limited involvement seems rather successful.

I don't lump folks who chose to be a 'good witness' in with those who will walk away simply because they have no empathy for anyone. Those who chose to be good witnesses have probably thought out their situation rather thoroughly.

All the condemning of ccw's for not putting their guns into play at every 'what-if' scenario is self-righteous at best, and blustery ego inflating at worst. I got my permit to protect me and mine. Everybody else out there has the same right (w/ certain exceptions of course, and those are a different matter). IF they choose to go without the proper tools into a world where they know what can happen, then that's on them. Chances are real good, those who chose not to use tools available to them, lack the mental preparedness to respond to a deadly situation anyway. Lotta folks on here look disdainfully on that segment of society as "sheeple", yet are so eager to use deadly force to protect them.
Lotta talk about can't face their maker for not getting involved. I took a vow to my wife to be there for her, good and bad, sickness and health, yadda yadda. I'm gonna do that. Promise my kids every day, "I'll see you tonight/morning". And, I made those promises before my maker. And i'll keep them. Part of keeping them is not deliberately putting myself in harm's way. I think I'd have a hard time explaining to my maker why I left my wife a widow, and my children fatherless because I got in too deep to fast just because I had a gun. Guess what "not my job". We have pro's that get paid to go looking for badguys to confront. I haven't promised society in general that I'll put my gun on to protect them. If I was gonna do that, I'd be a cop. I'm not.

Said all that to say all this. Don't be too judgmental towards the guy who was a good witness, but chose not to shoot someone, whether it be because one decided he didn't have a chance at all, or lacked the tools to deal w/ a situation, or just flat out had never figured on being in that particular scenario. None of us are in any position to judge the other over how far we are willing to cover others with our ccw umbrella.

This all sorta puts me in mind of a couple of thoughts. Seems most folks here are not real big fans of socialism. But ain't that what we espouse when we talk about involving our selves (up to our life) to protect someone who simply chose not to protect themselves, and leave it up to others to do it for them?
The other argument I hear is "well, if you see the dangerous person about to do dangerous things and you don't stop them, then you are useless". Ok, so when hurricane Katrina was forecast to hit NO, with 8 days advanced notice, how many of us got in our urban assault vehicles, with plenty of time to get there, and helped out. Same/same, you KNEW without a doubt what that storm would do. Did you go save lives then?

dan
 
#68 ·
Lotta folks on here look disdainfully on that segment of society as "sheeple", yet are so eager to use deadly force to protect them.
Good post Dan. I especially found myself thinking more about this ^^^^ I hadnt seen it in that light before.
 
#63 ·
Treo, you say "Bushido is just like the Ten Commandments, a wonderful philosophy of life that no one actually follows."
You're wrong, a lot of people follow them. The fact that they stray from the rules doesn't mitigate the importance of the rules, and the importance of striving to follow them.

"I see any comparison between gun owners and Samurai as dangerous because IMO it fosters an attitude of elitism. This can be seen in the air of moral superiority that some of the participants in this thread are taking towards those of us who don’t carry to defend ‘the flock”'

No Treo, it's not elitism, it's doing the right thing. Moral superiority? In this case, absolutely. It's difficult not be morally superior to those who selectively choose their own morality based on selfishness.

Those who ignore a stranger in peril display a unique brand of cowardice. The right of the people to be armed and carry under 2A is predicated as being part of the effort to contribute to the security of a free state. If you elect not uphold your obligation, you should turn in your weapons.
 
#69 ·
Those who ignore a stranger in peril display a unique brand of cowardice. .

I dont think anyone has said ignore. However many people seem to leap right to "use my gun."

I've been involved in many many emergency and other RL situations in my lifetime...voluntarily and professionally. And I never needed a gun. I got my gun *to protect me*. If there is an appropriate time to use it in the service of others...ok. But I will indeed be weighing the circumstances...which I explained in my first post. No gun fight EVER goes the way you expect.
 
#64 ·
In the Navy we learned about the use of force, when to and when not to, and how much force to use. I know myself and my abilities, if I see some punk laying a beat down on some old man am I going to shoot him? No. Am I going to step in and whup that punk's ass, you bet. If someone innocent is about to loss their life, or suffer serious bodily harm (rape included) I will intervene, with deadly force if needed. Consequences be damned, I couldn't live with myself if I through inaction allowed another person to die. It is a matter of honor, it is the duty of the strong to protect the weak.

Of course don't take that to mean I'll rush into a situation firing blindly either. I will evaluate the situation an use the least amount of force needed. It could be resolved by a verbal shout . . .
 
#66 · (Edited)
carguy2244

Those who ignore a stranger in peril display a unique brand of cowardice. The right of the people to be armed and carry under 2A is predicated as being part of the effort to contribute to the security of a free state. If you elect not uphold your obligation, you should turn in your weapons.
Perhaps you should learn the very real ramifications of helping another person by using your firearm.

To call someone a coward, as you have done, is an affront that is rooted in the 1950's. In case you haven't heard we are now in the year 2010. Long gone are the days when two men could go out back and settle things like men.

I don't know Treo, never met him, or even PM'ed him to my knowledge, and we may often disagree with how to handle certain problems in our society, but he doesn't strike me as a coward. If you want to make personal attacks perhaps you should find another place to hang your hat.

As for your opinion of me, I don't much care. Congratulations sir, you have made the "Ignore" feature. Have a nice life.

Biker
 
#67 ·
Some go as far as being insulting making disparaging remarks about those that do stand up to stop an assault, robbery, rape or murder.
So long as the insults, denigrations and disparaging remarks are withheld no matter the options available, then we can have constructive dialog about the viability of those options for realistic situations and limitations. Jumping into the fray simply isn't an option for all people at all times irrespective of all limitations.
 
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