Not my job

This is a discussion on Not my job within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I don’t completely ignore the plight of my fellow man. I’ve bought tanks of gas for people I’ve bought meals for people, I’ve given homeless ...

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  1. #61
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    I don’t completely ignore the plight of my fellow man. I’ve bought tanks of gas for people I’ve bought meals for people, I’ve given homeless people a buck or two (doesn’t really help but it really doesn’t hurt either) I once drove a hitch hiker from Tucson to Walsenburg .

    What I won’t do however is needlessly involve myself in any of the myriad of “I want to be a hero” threads that populate this sub forum. If, by my refusal, I earn the undying contempt of a moderator who I’ve never met in my life and who won’t contribute one dime to defray my expenses if I do, so what ?

    I look in the mirror and I’m cool, I sleep like a rock and I’m completely ready to stand before my Creator and give account of my actions. Your (generic) opinion of me means zero

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  3. #62
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    Seems we may have slight difference of opinion as to what defines "getting involved".
    Calling 9-1-1 and being a good witness IS getting involved. Just because one chooses not to go 'great guns' doesn't mean one is not getting involved. One is involved as soon as one begins to mentally engage the situation and, let's say call 911. If the witnessing of an unlawful or suspicious act, and later recounting it results in a conviction or helps to solve a crime, then that limited involvement seems rather successful.

    I don't lump folks who chose to be a 'good witness' in with those who will walk away simply because they have no empathy for anyone. Those who chose to be good witnesses have probably thought out their situation rather thoroughly.

    All the condemning of ccw's for not putting their guns into play at every 'what-if' scenario is self-righteous at best, and blustery ego inflating at worst. I got my permit to protect me and mine. Everybody else out there has the same right (w/ certain exceptions of course, and those are a different matter). IF they choose to go without the proper tools into a world where they know what can happen, then that's on them. Chances are real good, those who chose not to use tools available to them, lack the mental preparedness to respond to a deadly situation anyway. Lotta folks on here look disdainfully on that segment of society as "sheeple", yet are so eager to use deadly force to protect them.
    Lotta talk about can't face their maker for not getting involved. I took a vow to my wife to be there for her, good and bad, sickness and health, yadda yadda. I'm gonna do that. Promise my kids every day, "I'll see you tonight/morning". And, I made those promises before my maker. And i'll keep them. Part of keeping them is not deliberately putting myself in harm's way. I think I'd have a hard time explaining to my maker why I left my wife a widow, and my children fatherless because I got in too deep to fast just because I had a gun. Guess what "not my job". We have pro's that get paid to go looking for badguys to confront. I haven't promised society in general that I'll put my gun on to protect them. If I was gonna do that, I'd be a cop. I'm not.

    Said all that to say all this. Don't be too judgmental towards the guy who was a good witness, but chose not to shoot someone, whether it be because one decided he didn't have a chance at all, or lacked the tools to deal w/ a situation, or just flat out had never figured on being in that particular scenario. None of us are in any position to judge the other over how far we are willing to cover others with our ccw umbrella.

    This all sorta puts me in mind of a couple of thoughts. Seems most folks here are not real big fans of socialism. But ain't that what we espouse when we talk about involving our selves (up to our life) to protect someone who simply chose not to protect themselves, and leave it up to others to do it for them?
    The other argument I hear is "well, if you see the dangerous person about to do dangerous things and you don't stop them, then you are useless". Ok, so when hurricane Katrina was forecast to hit NO, with 8 days advanced notice, how many of us got in our urban assault vehicles, with plenty of time to get there, and helped out. Same/same, you KNEW without a doubt what that storm would do. Did you go save lives then?

    dan

  4. #63
    Member Array carguy2244's Avatar
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    Treo, you say "Bushido is just like the Ten Commandments, a wonderful philosophy of life that no one actually follows."
    You're wrong, a lot of people follow them. The fact that they stray from the rules doesn't mitigate the importance of the rules, and the importance of striving to follow them.

    "I see any comparison between gun owners and Samurai as dangerous because IMO it fosters an attitude of elitism. This can be seen in the air of moral superiority that some of the participants in this thread are taking towards those of us who don’t carry to defend ‘the flock”'

    No Treo, it's not elitism, it's doing the right thing. Moral superiority? In this case, absolutely. It's difficult not be morally superior to those who selectively choose their own morality based on selfishness.

    Those who ignore a stranger in peril display a unique brand of cowardice. The right of the people to be armed and carry under 2A is predicated as being part of the effort to contribute to the security of a free state. If you elect not uphold your obligation, you should turn in your weapons.
    LongRider likes this.

  5. #64
    Member Array Laser Sailor's Avatar
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    In the Navy we learned about the use of force, when to and when not to, and how much force to use. I know myself and my abilities, if I see some punk laying a beat down on some old man am I going to shoot him? No. Am I going to step in and whup that punk's ass, you bet. If someone innocent is about to loss their life, or suffer serious bodily harm (rape included) I will intervene, with deadly force if needed. Consequences be damned, I couldn't live with myself if I through inaction allowed another person to die. It is a matter of honor, it is the duty of the strong to protect the weak.

    Of course don't take that to mean I'll rush into a situation firing blindly either. I will evaluate the situation an use the least amount of force needed. It could be resolved by a verbal shout . . .
    MA2, USN

    When only cops have guns, it's called a "police state". Love your country, but never trust its government.
    -- Robert A. Heinlein.

  6. #65
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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  7. #66
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    carguy2244

    Those who ignore a stranger in peril display a unique brand of cowardice. The right of the people to be armed and carry under 2A is predicated as being part of the effort to contribute to the security of a free state. If you elect not uphold your obligation, you should turn in your weapons.
    Perhaps you should learn the very real ramifications of helping another person by using your firearm.

    To call someone a coward, as you have done, is an affront that is rooted in the 1950's. In case you haven't heard we are now in the year 2010. Long gone are the days when two men could go out back and settle things like men.

    I don't know Treo, never met him, or even PM'ed him to my knowledge, and we may often disagree with how to handle certain problems in our society, but he doesn't strike me as a coward. If you want to make personal attacks perhaps you should find another place to hang your hat.

    As for your opinion of me, I don't much care. Congratulations sir, you have made the "Ignore" feature. Have a nice life.

    Biker
    Last edited by BikerRN; August 5th, 2010 at 10:13 PM. Reason: typo

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    Some go as far as being insulting making disparaging remarks about those that do stand up to stop an assault, robbery, rape or murder.
    So long as the insults, denigrations and disparaging remarks are withheld no matter the options available, then we can have constructive dialog about the viability of those options for realistic situations and limitations. Jumping into the fray simply isn't an option for all people at all times irrespective of all limitations.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  9. #68
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdsumner View Post
    Lotta folks on here look disdainfully on that segment of society as "sheeple", yet are so eager to use deadly force to protect them.
    Good post Dan. I especially found myself thinking more about this ^^^^ I hadnt seen it in that light before.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  10. #69
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carguy2244 View Post
    Those who ignore a stranger in peril display a unique brand of cowardice. .

    I dont think anyone has said ignore. However many people seem to leap right to "use my gun."

    I've been involved in many many emergency and other RL situations in my lifetime...voluntarily and professionally. And I never needed a gun. I got my gun *to protect me*. If there is an appropriate time to use it in the service of others...ok. But I will indeed be weighing the circumstances...which I explained in my first post. No gun fight EVER goes the way you expect.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  11. #70
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    Maybe I have missed something but why do some people seam so gung ho to get involved and help people. For me if it’s a serious crime call and be a good witness, is my standard operating procedure. I find it hard to care about petty stuff anymore. Why is that so wrong to some people? What point is there to prove by using a firearm in a situation? Also concerned about trying to explain not acting to a maker, seams like a pretty flimsy concern against all the problems it could cause.

  12. #71
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexHassin View Post
    Maybe I have missed something but why do some people seam so gung ho to get involved and help people. For me if it’s a serious crime call and be a good witness, is my standard operating procedure. I find it hard to care about petty stuff anymore. Why is that so wrong to some people? What point is there to prove by using a firearm in a situation? Also concerned about trying to explain not acting to a maker, seams like a pretty flimsy concern against all the problems it could cause.
    Because it lets them thump their chest and prove their manhood to each other.

  13. #72
    Member Array yoyomeng's Avatar
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    To me seeing in almost every scenario post most people saying "dial 911 and be a good witness" proves the point to me that most people acknowledge and consider the issues that may arise by lending a hand in this day and age.

  14. #73
    Distinguished Member Array Dragman's Avatar
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    If someone hits me on the head with a bat as I walk down the street and I am knocked out and they continue to hit me I hope someone helps! I would be carrying but if I am jumped it's not my fault I couldn't defend myself. Seriously could you just stand across the street on your cell phone to 911 and "be a good witness"? To each there own, but I couldn't live with that myself.
    To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carguy2244 View Post
    You're all so pleased to have the 2A right to carry protected by the Constitution, but hide from the responsibility required of you in the 2nd Amendment. By that measure, which is clear and indisputable, your right to carry is not protected, due to your deficiency in meeting the stipulations of 2A.
    Wow...ok...umm...are you new to carrying? Because you sound a little too gung ho...like someone who thinks a gun is always the answer. Thinking THEN acting is the answer. Are you willing to sacrifice your family and your ability to take care of them should you put yourself in a position where you take someone's life? Does your family know this? Seriously...

    Have you really researched defensive shootings whereby it wasn't a textbook, clear case of self-defense? The aftermath of a shooting, the legal aspects and costs of a defense? I highly recommend research...because your position appears to be one of ignorance.

    And I recommend you do more reading and less posting, so as you understand the community you are a member of, and who makes up this community.

    v/r
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  16. #75
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    if I see some punk laying a beat down on some old man am I going to shoot him? No. Am I going to step in and whup that punk's ass, you bet.
    That's an important point. "Getting involved" does not necessarily mean bringing your firearm into the picture. In most thinkable circumstances - the vast majority of situations in which you might intervene to render aid - your involvement is likely to be extremely minimal.

    Here's an example from real-life, which happened about a year ago: I was leaving a convenience store and a woman was approaching the entrance, and alongside of her was a car, pacing her. This crazy-looking dude was hanging out the window, yelling some weird, offensive things at her. She was shouting back at him to leave her alone, and from the remarks in both directions it was evident that they were strangers to each other. As she got closer to the doorway, the guy got out of the car and began moving toward her, yelling and gesturing, and he had an open can of beer in his hand.

    So I stepped between them and fixed the guy with a look. He stopped, looked at me, and realized that he was going to have to get past me to get to her. He shook his head and got back in the car, which drove off. I didn't have to say a word. This is typical of how one might act to defuse a situation that is spiraling toward a bad event.

    In other cases, a shouted, "Hey, you!" can put a perp on notice that he is being observed. Just as some 99 percent of all defensive uses of a handgun do not require the firing of the weapon, so, too, can the introduction of an observer halt a crime in progress.

    To those here who maintain that one should never involve oneself in anything because of litigational risk, well, that falls under the "don't be stupid" rule. It was wisely noted above that should one decide to intervene, it should be "on one's own terms." Anybody rushing blindly into something they don't understand deserves whatever they get. When should one step up to the plate? You'll know it when the time comes and there won't be any ambiguity about it.

    And, of course, all the above is predicated on your skills and ability and tools at hand. Do you have a kubotan? OC spray? A flashlight? A bicycle?
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

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