Not my job

This is a discussion on Not my job within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by yoyomeng To me seeing in almost every scenario post most people saying "dial 911 and be a good witness" proves the point ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoyomeng View Post
    To me seeing in almost every scenario post most people saying "dial 911 and be a good witness" proves the point to me that most people acknowledge and consider the issues that may arise by lending a hand in this day and age.
    That's all it is, right there.

    Every situation is different.

    Jumping into the fray is fine, when it's known who the GG is and a positive outcome is likely. But few situations I've seen are so clear-cut along with having a likely outcome. In those such situations, it's simply a junkyard dog fight in which it's far smarter to call "God" (police) and let "him" (them) sort it out who's who.

    A crime that occurs right in front of a person is one thing; a rape is clear-cut; a robbery in progress by a masked person at the corner store is clear-cut. None of which are really the point of the above quote.

    Were we all omniscient and possessed of amazing H2H skills as well as willpower and a firearm, then correct assessment of all situations would be achievable and "helping" could result in the right thing being done. Life isn't always so straightforward.

    (Note: None of this presumes to imply that all clear-cut situations are to be ignored and obvious GG's discarded to the winds of karma as if acknowledgment of this distinction applies to every situation. Consider that, before broad-stroking claims of "cowardice" to those attempting to do the right thing.)
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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  3. #77
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    My main moral obligation is to be a good husband to my wife and father to my sons.

    If I intervene in a situation and wind up dead or in prison then I am failing my primary duty in life, which is to protect and provide for my family.

    I am not saying that I won't intervene but the circumstances of my intervention are greatly curtailed.
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  4. #78
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    Wow...ok...umm...are you new to carrying? Because you sound a little too gung ho...like someone who thinks a gun is always the answer. Thinking THEN acting is the answer. Are you willing to sacrifice your family and your ability to take care of them should you put yourself in a position where you take someone's life? Does your family know this? Seriously...

    Have you really researched defensive shootings whereby it wasn't a textbook, clear case of self-defense? The aftermath of a shooting, the legal aspects and costs of a defense? I highly recommend research...because your position appears to be one of ignorance.

    And I recommend you do more reading and less posting, so as you understand the community you are a member of, and who makes up this community.

    v/r
    Yep! Thanks for voicing reasonableness.
    Last edited by oakchas; August 6th, 2010 at 02:18 PM.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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  5. #79
    Member Array Deuce130's Avatar
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    Lots of good opinions on here, and I see both sides. All I can say is that I hope that if my wife or daughters are ever being raped, beaten, assaulted, and/or killed, and someone could help them, that they would. I would attempt to do the same for your wives and children, regardless of whether I'm asked to or not.

  6. #80
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    From the Original Post
    So when you see an evil act being committed before running away and hiding consider is it REALLY the RIGHT thing to do. Is it how you would want others to act if it was your wife, mother or daughter being victimized. Even that bone headed neighbor is an American and deserves to be treated with respect not only by the government but even more so by each of us.
    Rest assured: If I was witnessing an assault on a woman (wife, mother, or daughter)... I would be fully engaged.

    That does not necessarily mean I would be drawing my weapon, making a citizen's arrest, or otherwise physically involved.

    It may mean simply calling attention to the fact that I can see what's happening...

    It may mean I ask the woman if she is okay.... and getting a response I can believe.

    What if the responses to my "engagement" don't add up? Next rung on the OODA ladder/loop, I guess... But all of this is situational... It may be just being a good witness.. it may be going to involvement... it may mean walking away...

    Yes, I am primarily armed to protect myself... and my loved ones. I am not likely to walk by an assault looking up at the sky and pretending it is not happening. But, my total involvement in it may not occur. EVERY SITUATION IS DIFFERENT.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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  7. #81
    Member Array carguy2244's Avatar
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    Sig, I was new to carrying in 1976.
    I'm certainly need no lessons about thinking before acting from anyone. I'm intimately familiar with the financial, legal, social, and psychological ramifications of physical interventions, whether they include a sidearm or not.
    The fact remains as stated above. It's the obligation of every able bodied citizen to contribute to the security of a free state, because it's that free state that allows us all the privileges we enjoy - and that obligation is full time and permanent.

    When you enlisted, you took on that obligation, and presumably you fulfill it honorably every moment. Why would you hold others up to a lower standard?

  8. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by carguy2244 View Post
    Sig, I was new to carrying in 1976.
    I'm certainly need no lessons about thinking before acting from anyone. I'm intimately familiar with the financial, legal, social, and psychological ramifications of physical interventions, whether they include a sidearm or not.
    The fact remains as stated above. It's the obligation of every able bodied citizen to contribute to the security of a free state, because it's that free state that allows us all the privileges we enjoy - and that obligation is full time and permanent.

    When you enlisted, you took on that obligation, and presumably you fulfill it honorably every moment. Why would you hold others up to a lower standard?
    Outside of duty, I can only account for my actions (and those of my children)...no one else's...Thank you, but I do not need to be reminded of my obligations--I've got scars for that.

    While I agree with your sentiment....fact remains that anyone who puts themselves in situation where they use their firearm OTHER than for personal defense is subject to significant legal and financial ramifications. In this day and age, (to repeat) I will not sacrifice myself or my family for someone else...unless that person is a child or elderly person.

    It appears that since 1976 you still think that the gun is the only answer...and that is disconcerting. The words you use:

    Quote Originally Posted by carguy2244
    It's the obligation of every able bodied citizen to contribute to the security of a free state, because it's that free state that allows us all the privileges we enjoy - and that obligation is full time and permanent.
    can lead one to believe that you advocate vigilantism...which I am against.

    So I will ask this---how many people have you saved? How many BG have you killed? How many times have you been in court? How much money did you lose? Ever lose a job due to lost time from a shooting event? I mean, since 1976, you've must have saved thousands of people by now. How many people have you held to your standard? How successful have you been in holding people to this immeasureable standard?

    What is wrong with being a good witness? One could argue, that since most everyone has the capacity to defend themselves, but refuse to do so--by letting them realize no one else is going do it for them, IS holding them accountable......afterall, why should someone who is a victim of a crime buy a gun if there will be others to do it for them?

    Sometimes the lesson of self-defense is painful...
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  9. #83
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey shockwave: You referred to my comment about "never being certain about what is going on in other peoples' minds etc'"and then you talk about a kid breaking car windows. My reply was intended to amplify on the "imminent threat to life and great bodily injury" and breaking windows is immaterial to my comments. If I saw a kid breaking windows, I would call 911 and "absorb" (description, his car or bike, etc etc) as much info as I can about the kid without necessarily confronting him, particularly if I am CC. It is just not my position to interject myself, cause an elevation in the situation, and maybe have to then defend myself against some "punk kid" with a very big and dangerous attitude WHEN THERE IS NO THREAT OF IMMINENT DEATH OR GREAT BODILY INJURY. Witnesses could very well see that I elevated the situation and ended up being the cause for a possible shooting. It's a crazy world and odds are the car owner has insurance. Just sayin.

  10. #84
    Distinguished Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    If I saw a kid breaking windows, I would call 911 and "absorb" (description, his car or bike, etc etc) as much info as I can about the kid without necessarily confronting him
    Hi kelcarry. Just so we're on the same page, the illustration I gave was as example of how kicking back and dialing 911 isn't necessarily a good move. Let's say police response time in your area averages 15 minutes, give or take.

    So you're working on something at home and you hear glass breaking. You look out the window, and it's some punk teenager smashing car windows and grabbing CDs and whatnot. Yes, you could call it in, and watch as he works his way down your street, car after car, maybe yours in line, too. You gonna wait for the po-po while Mr Smash 'n' Grab has a field day? Me, I'm going to walk out and get his attention: "Hey, you! What the hell do you think you're doing?" No need for gunplay. I might bring a pair of sais with me, a jo, something like that.

    Probably be good to make the 911 call before or during, so when he runs for it he won't get far. Safety in my neighborhood is as much a resident responsibility as it is a police job. No need to be overly timid. One should be prudent, but not timid.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  11. #85
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carguy2244 View Post
    The fact remains as stated above. It's the obligation of every able bodied citizen to contribute to the security of a free state, because it's that free state that allows us all the privileges we enjoy - and that obligation is full time and permanent.

    By what authority do you dictate my morals?

  12. #86
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carguy2244 View Post
    Sig, I was new to carrying in 1976.
    I'm certainly need no lessons about thinking before acting from anyone. I'm intimately familiar with the financial, legal, social, and psychological ramifications of physical interventions, whether they include a sidearm or not.
    The fact remains as stated above. It's the obligation of every able bodied citizen to contribute to the security of a free state, because it's that free state that allows us all the privileges we enjoy - and that obligation is full time and permanent.

    When you enlisted, you took on that obligation, and presumably you fulfill it honorably every moment. Why would you hold others up to a lower standard?
    You are so off base with the enlistment oath, I have no idea where to begin.....

  13. #87
    Member Array caubry89's Avatar
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    I have to agree with the OP. I have seen posts about being at the local gas station and someone coming in to rob the place at gun point, and all that most say they will do is stand by and be a good witness. I refuse to stand by and watch an innocent person be killed or injured just because I'm not LE. I would rather take down the BG and risk the consequences, than to see an innocent person murdered and have to live knowing I may have been able to prevent it, if only I had tried. Some may call me stupid for it, but I am willing to put my life on the line to save someone elses, if it's my time to go, then so be it.

  14. #88
    Member Array carguy2244's Avatar
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    Treo, I'm not dictating your morals - but abandoning a stranger in mortal peril is terribly immoral.
    AZ, did you read something that referred to the enlistment oath? No, you didn't.

  15. #89
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carguy2244 View Post
    Treo, I'm not dictating your morals - but abandoning a stranger in mortal peril is terribly immoral.
    AZ, did you read something that referred to the enlistment oath? No, you didn't.
    Again, you have no right to tell me what's moral in my life. As I've said before there may be something missing in my make up but I don't recognize any moral obligation to come to the aid of my fellow man just because I have a gun

  16. #90
    Member Array caubry89's Avatar
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    Treo I don't think it has anything to do with a gun. Even if I'm unarmed I will do anything including putting my life on the line for another person in danger.

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