This is a discussion on Not my job within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Not every justified SD ends up in court. I'd be interested in seeing a report on the percentage that does. And, DoctorBob, you should know ...
Not every justified SD ends up in court. I'd be interested in seeing a report on the percentage that does. And, DoctorBob, you should know there's no civil case in a FL justified SD. We are wisely protected from such BS.
I think this thread is about due for an intermission break.
Retired USAF E-8. Official forum curmudgeon.
Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth
Too many what if's, to say I would do this or that. My job is to my family and to protect them at all cost. Yes I would (and I would guess most others here would as well) engage a BG, if they where shooting at children. I put the time into training so I could protect my family and getting them trained to protect themselves. I do not see why I would be required to protect others, they could have done the same.
TEST time. 2 big guys fighting with girl on the ground and she is yelling rape. What do you do?
Those two big guys you see fighting with that girl on the ground, who is yelling rape, are plain clothes cops, trying to arrest the girl for cutting her kids up in pieces. I hope you did not shoot them.
That has to be the most far fetched scenario I've seen here. Two guys, cops, fighting with a girl. No badges out, no cuffs on the girl, just fighting. She's yelling rape, but everybody's fully clothed. Then the choice is either shoot, or make a phone call. How about confronting the situation? I guess if the 2 BGs were on the job, you'd find out pretty quickly. If not, you'd find that out quickly too, and then be able to act accordingly.
I've never seen a crew of people so anxious to justify walking away from trouble, rather than help someone who IS in trouble.
So suit yourself. Go ahead and run out there to fight for Truth, Justice, and the American Way of Life if you must. But just be advised that the "justice" part may come back to bite you.
"I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."
Did you ever consider there are many options besides "guns blazing" and using your cell phone? If you were unarmed and had no cell, would you just walk away?
As I foolishly go back and read what the members I have chosen to ignore type I re-confirm my decision to put them on "IGNORE".
I posted this a while back but it seems appropriate here as wellI recieved this story in an email from USCCA. As far as I know it is not copyrighted and distribution is unrestricted.
Something to really consider before you go play hero
Please read carefully
I was out walking in our neighborhood a couple of days ago around dusk. I was almost through with my walk, when I noticed a couple of girls, probably around 5 or 6 years old, walking toward me about a block away. Now our neighborhood is a middle-class, blue-collar, very safe neighborhood, so nothing unusual about this.
A few seconds later, an earlier-model small sedan with faded paint stopped by the girls, and a man emerged and approached the girls. Still nothing particularly unusual, but I became more interested. The man was wearing dirty jeans, work boots, a dirty T-shirt and a black baseball cap. The man exchanged a few words with the girls, and then grabbed one of them by the arm. She tried to fall to the ground kicking and screaming, and her friend ran away.
The man dragged the screaming girl around to the driver side of the car and pushed her in, and then slid in behind her. Now I was on high alert. As the vehicle started towards me, I had by then approached within about 50 yards and drawn my Glock 26. I had a clear shot at the driver's head through the windshield. As I took aim, I remembered that the Texas Penal Code gives one the right to protect the lives of third parties. Specifically, Section 9.33 reads:
"A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:
(1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and
(2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.The Texas CHL course is very good at educating students about the legal ramifications of concealed carry, and I had an excellent instructor. But our instructor also hit very hard on the point that we should all decide whether we would be willing to risk going to jail and depriving our families of a husband and father for many years over the death of an innocent bystander in the attempt to protect a third party.
All of this was going through my head. This all seemed to be happening in slow motion, and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Rather than shooting, I lowered my gun and got the license number of the car as it went by me. I used my cell phone to call 911 and report the abduction. Chills went through my body as a few hours later, an officer called me to let me know that they had located the car and driver at his residence a few blocks away.
It turned out that the man was the girl's father and he stopped to pick her up on her way home because dinner was waiting. The girl had other ideas - she was determined to walk home with her next-door girl-friend
Somebody here (paraphrasing Mas Ayoob, I believe) frequently uses the phrase "Totality of the situation."
None of us can determine the "totality of a situation" (UNLESS we are the ones being directly threatened) in the ~1.5 seconds it takes to draw, aim, and perhaps fire.
I will help my fellow man, I will do what I can, reasonably, to help in any given situation... I will not ignore a suspicious situation... But that does not mean I will go in GUNZABLAZIN, KILL 'EM ALL AND LET GOD SORT 'EM OUT.
Defending innocents at any cost, with no regard to personal peril is not logical, it is not prudent, not sane. It is martyrdom, and very possibly, for the wrong reason.
If it is "my job" to protect the innocent in all cases I happen upon... Why is then not incumbent on me to go out in search of innocents to protect..? That is the realm of fictional superheroes or "Unbreakable" characters.
An apt, current allegory is the case of the man protecting the property of another, as recently demonstrated by the CCW permit holder who shot at youths running away from a cell phone store with stolen merchandise. In his own words "I'm not a cowboy," he said. "I'm not a hero. I was just doing what I always try to do: help." His "Helping" landed him in jail.... and I don't know whether they've caught the thieves or not yet. Link to story
The OP is right.. It is NOT MY JOB to stupidly risk my family's bread winner, my family's home, my family's future, just because I went through a state approved course and qualified on a range so that I could carry a pistol to protect myself and them.
As to oaths, I have only pledged my allegiance to my flag and to the republic for which it stands... I have never served in the military... I have never served as a policeman. But the oaths for the former can not be convoluted, stretched, or made to encompass life after enlistment. In fact, if it were to encompass life after the initial enlistment, it would not be required to be re-sworn on re-enlistment.
There is a very fine line between hero and fool. People who try to be heroes usually end up fools. I am reluctant to be either.
It could be worse!
That's just a strawman. Nobody has suggested you should involve yourself "in all cases."If it is "my job" to protect the innocent in all cases I happen upon... Why is then not incumbent on me to go out in search of innocents to protect..?
More importantly, I think it's been made clear that getting involved doesn't mean drawing a weapon. A lot of comments here to the effect of "I can't risk my family and my financial future" are predicated on the idea of pulling out a gun, and that's always the absolute last thing you ever want to do.
Treo's post above about the guy drawing on a serious situation that turned out to be a domestic thing is a classic case in point. The guy sees a guy get out of a car and approach the teens and he goes on alert. That's pretty much the whole ball of wax right there. He's paying attention and trying to get a read on what's happening. Although he draws, he correctly doesn't shoot because he doesn't know for sure what's going on. Correctly, it's awfully suspicious and he calls it in.
The prevention of crime and injury is a community responsibility. All able-bodied adults should take an interest in the well-being of their neighbors. CCW owners have neither additional nor lessened regard in the matter.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
That said... many posts (by one some have chosen to ignore, apparently) appear to muster the mall ninjas present. What with our all "being part of the militia" fighting against not only the tyranny of government; but of individuals, too. And, obviously insinuating that those who have a CCW are more obligated to help and more able to do so than the average citizen. Though in the end, he does start to back off... Suggesting that using a cel phone may constitute getting involved... where earlier, he was disparaging of one who chose to do so.
I have been a good citizen... I have reported crime, I have been a good witness, I have even disclosed (not brandished) my weapon (in what I consider to be pre-emptive self defense). I have come to the aid of a woman being assaulted by an angry, drunk ex-husband who was assaulting her and terrorizing their down syndrome child (and I was unarmed at the time).
While I beleive in doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do, I just don't believe someone else has the right to tell me that I should do any of those things at my own peril...
And, if I call someone to task for the things I think they may not have done, or might not do when they are "called upon" to do them... While insinuating that I have in fact done those things and that they are less than worthy for not doing them. I will not say "I don't advertise..."
Though I like to think I have been pretty good at assesing the level of threats in and around my own life... None of us is perfect at making spilt second decisions... If anything, the instant availability of a handgun might make me a bit slower to be certain of my course of action. Hopefully, and historically (in my case) those who might cause me to actually use said weapon, will be a bit slower than I.
It could be worse!
All those responding who are saying they would not go charging guns blazing into a situation they knew nothing about. Great!! Good to hear that. I agree, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic or my original post.
I did not make a single reference to using a gun. The topic has nothing to do with whether or not a person even carries a gun. While a gun may come into play in different scenarios that really is not relevant. As it is not a tactical question about how you would respond. Instead the question would be, Would you stand up or do nothing when an act of evil act is being committed in your presence? Not, would you use your gun.
The topic also has nothing to do with scenarios where someone does not know what is going on. The only scenario relevant to this topic. Is the one in which you KNOW that there is an act of evil being committed in your presence. Meaning an act in which another human being is being victimized. I thought I was clear on that point, maybe not. To clarify, when I used the phrases "in the face of evil" and "see an evil act being committed" it meant that you are fully aware of the crime being committed in your presence. I used those phrases as I am now rather than detailing the whole list of evil acts that can occur in the presence of another. In hopes of trimming down an already rather verbose post and avoid having the topic derailed into discussions about specific scenarios.
This is the clearest example of what I am talking about. Those who would do nothing, may not be able to understand or able to accept this, as fact. The truth is there was a time in America when people did not just stand by and watch, taking pictures for U-Tube while someone was being raped, robbed, assaulted, or murdered. It was incomprehensible back than and still is to me.
When this story happened it made national news. The headline for a what seems like a month. Nightly on different news programs ministers, shrinks experts discussing this "National Disgrace". That is what it was being called a "National Disgrace". They asked what kind of spineless cowards were these people. How could people stand by and do nothing while a human being was being murdered. Teachers even talked about it in class. As I recall that the common consensus was it was New York. Those people are mostly foreigners not real Americans. That would never happen around here with real Americans.
I am not trying to insult or attack anyone. I am trying to have those who would do nothing to reconsider their position. I understand that "Do Nothing" is the norm in America today. I and those like me are the oddballs. I get that. What you may not understand is how disheartening even alarming it is to realize this once Great Nation has changed so much.
As one poster said these are ethos that are dated back from the 1950's. He is right in part. I'm saying those old ethics and codes of conduct worked better than "Do Nothing, stand by and watch". They are old, they go back even farther back than the 1950's to this nations roots. We as a nation had to depend upon one another, just to survive. Working together for the common good is what made us a Great Nation. By the 1950's things began to change. I believe that there have been some real negative consequences. You may have noticed this attitude of its all about ME, Me Myself and I has not been working very well.
As a nation we have empowered the criminals to the point that we are afraid them. Even afraid they will have us jailed, as many have posted here. Doesn't that strike anyone as insane?
We have given the police and government so much power we are afraid of them. too. Who has not had that feeling of discomfort nervousness by the presence of police? Or the presence of the government in every area of our lives? Used to be a cop was a welcome presence, one of the good guys. One of "US".
I am not saying there are no risks and consequences for doing the right thing. There are. I am saying that there are also consequences for not doing the right thing.
Last edited by LongRider; August 10th, 2010 at 10:53 PM.
Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution
Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family