Not my job

This is a discussion on Not my job within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Not every justified SD ends up in court. I'd be interested in seeing a report on the percentage that does. And, DoctorBob, you should know ...

Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ... 4567891011 LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 157
Like Tree7Likes

Thread: Not my job

  1. #106
    VIP Member
    Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    S. Florida, north of the Miami mess, south of the Mouse trap
    Posts
    16,200
    Not every justified SD ends up in court. I'd be interested in seeing a report on the percentage that does. And, DoctorBob, you should know there's no civil case in a FL justified SD. We are wisely protected from such BS.

    I think this thread is about due for an intermission break.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #107
    Senior Member Array DoctorBob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    585
    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Not every justified SD ends up in court. I'd be interested in seeing a report on the percentage that does. And, DoctorBob, you should know there's no civil case in a FL justified SD. We are wisely protected from such BS.

    I think this thread is about due for an intermission break.
    If they decide to prosecute and it is adjudicated as NOT justified, then you are liable in a civli setting.

  4. #108
    Member Array Bulldog39's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    KY
    Posts
    339
    Too many what if's, to say I would do this or that. My job is to my family and to protect them at all cost. Yes I would (and I would guess most others here would as well) engage a BG, if they where shooting at children. I put the time into training so I could protect my family and getting them trained to protect themselves. I do not see why I would be required to protect others, they could have done the same.

    test time. 2 big guys fighting with girl on the ground and she is yelling rape. What do you do?


    Those two big guys you see fighting with that girl on the ground, who is yelling rape, are plain clothes cops, trying to arrest the girl for cutting her kids up in pieces. I hope you did not shoot them.
    Semper Fi

  5. #109
    Distinguished Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Southeast
    Posts
    1,996
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog39 View Post
    test time. 2 big guys fighting with girl on the ground and she is yelling rape. What do you do?


    Those two big guys you see fighting with that girl on the ground, who is yelling rape, are plain clothes cops, trying to arrest the girl for cutting her kids up in pieces. I hope you did not shoot them.
    Great example. If someone decided to be a hero and blast away, he could effectively destroy his life. And for what? I can't think of a better time to call 911 than this.
    "I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."

    -miklcolt45

  6. #110
    Member Array carguy2244's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    310
    That has to be the most far fetched scenario I've seen here. Two guys, cops, fighting with a girl. No badges out, no cuffs on the girl, just fighting. She's yelling rape, but everybody's fully clothed. Then the choice is either shoot, or make a phone call. How about confronting the situation? I guess if the 2 BGs were on the job, you'd find out pretty quickly. If not, you'd find that out quickly too, and then be able to act accordingly.
    I've never seen a crew of people so anxious to justify walking away from trouble, rather than help someone who IS in trouble.

  7. #111
    Distinguished Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Southeast
    Posts
    1,996
    Quote Originally Posted by carguy2244 View Post
    That has to be the most far fetched scenario I've seen here.
    Then maybe you need to get out more. Many situations aren't as they seem. Not long ago on this very board, someone posted about a scraggly looking guy forcing a young girl into his car. To make a long story short, it was the custodial father trying to control his bratty daughter. Would you like the consequences of drawing down on him in front of witnesses? I wouldn't. Not knowing a situation can cost you greatly.

    Quote Originally Posted by carguy2244 View Post
    Two guys, cops, fighting with a girl. No badges out, no cuffs on the girl, just fighting. She's yelling rape, but everybody's fully clothed.
    If the girl is struggling enough, then they haven't subdued her yet to the point where they can grab any gear. Why would they have badges displayed if they're working undercover?

    Quote Originally Posted by carguy2244 View Post
    Then the choice is either shoot, or make a phone call. How about confronting the situation? I guess if the 2 BGs were on the job, you'd find out pretty quickly. If not, you'd find that out quickly too, and then be able to act accordingly.
    So what if you don't find out until it's too late? What if they tell you that they're police? Will you believe them, especially if the "poor, innocent" girl is screaming that they're NOT?

    Quote Originally Posted by carguy2244 View Post
    I've never seen a crew of people so anxious to justify walking away from trouble, rather than help someone who IS in trouble.
    No, the crew here is generally interested in seeing exactly what the trouble IS before diving in with guns blazing. Personally, I have two young sons who need their dad and I'm not about to put on my Robin Hood mask and just jump right in, only to be imprisoned for guessing wrong or ruined financially.

    So suit yourself. Go ahead and run out there to fight for Truth, Justice, and the American Way of Life if you must. But just be advised that the "justice" part may come back to bite you.
    "I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."

    -miklcolt45

  8. #112
    Member Array carguy2244's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    310
    Did you ever consider there are many options besides "guns blazing" and using your cell phone? If you were unarmed and had no cell, would you just walk away?

  9. #113
    Member Array NIS350ZTT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    South GA
    Posts
    244
    Highly dependent on specific scenarios. My number one priority is my family, then myself, then children, then women, etc. If the scenario permitted, I would help.

  10. #114
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    State of Discombobulation
    Posts
    5,253
    As I foolishly go back and read what the members I have chosen to ignore type I re-confirm my decision to put them on "IGNORE".

    Biker

  11. #115
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by carguy2244 View Post
    Did you ever consider there are many options besides "guns blazing" and using your cell phone? If you were unarmed and had no cell, would you just walk away?
    I'd walk away if I was armed and had a cell but that's me

    EDIT

    I posted this a while back but it seems appropriate here as well

    I recieved this story in an email from USCCA. As far as I know it is not copyrighted and distribution is unrestricted.

    Something to really consider before you go play hero

    Please read carefully


    I was out walking in our neighborhood a couple of days ago around dusk. I was almost through with my walk, when I noticed a couple of girls, probably around 5 or 6 years old, walking toward me about a block away. Now our neighborhood is a middle-class, blue-collar, very safe neighborhood, so nothing unusual about this.

    A few seconds later, an earlier-model small sedan with faded paint stopped by the girls, and a man emerged and approached the girls. Still nothing particularly unusual, but I became more interested. The man was wearing dirty jeans, work boots, a dirty T-shirt and a black baseball cap. The man exchanged a few words with the girls, and then grabbed one of them by the arm. She tried to fall to the ground kicking and screaming, and her friend ran away.

    The man dragged the screaming girl around to the driver side of the car and pushed her in, and then slid in behind her. Now I was on high alert. As the vehicle started towards me, I had by then approached within about 50 yards and drawn my Glock 26. I had a clear shot at the driver's head through the windshield. As I took aim, I remembered that the Texas Penal Code gives one the right to protect the lives of third parties. Specifically, Section 9.33 reads:

    "A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:

    (1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and

    (2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.The Texas CHL course is very good at educating students about the legal ramifications of concealed carry, and I had an excellent instructor. But our instructor also hit very hard on the point that we should all decide whether we would be willing to risk going to jail and depriving our families of a husband and father for many years over the death of an innocent bystander in the attempt to protect a third party.

    All of this was going through my head. This all seemed to be happening in slow motion, and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Rather than shooting, I lowered my gun and got the license number of the car as it went by me. I used my cell phone to call 911 and report the abduction. Chills went through my body as a few hours later, an officer called me to let me know that they had located the car and driver at his residence a few blocks away.

    It turned out that the man was the girl's father and he stopped to pick her up on her way home because dinner was waiting. The girl had other ideas - she was determined to walk home with her next-door girl-friend

  12. #116
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    7,335
    Somebody here (paraphrasing Mas Ayoob, I believe) frequently uses the phrase "Totality of the situation."

    None of us can determine the "totality of a situation" (UNLESS we are the ones being directly threatened) in the ~1.5 seconds it takes to draw, aim, and perhaps fire.

    I will help my fellow man, I will do what I can, reasonably, to help in any given situation... I will not ignore a suspicious situation... But that does not mean I will go in GUNZABLAZIN, KILL 'EM ALL AND LET GOD SORT 'EM OUT.

    Defending innocents at any cost, with no regard to personal peril is not logical, it is not prudent, not sane. It is martyrdom, and very possibly, for the wrong reason.

    If it is "my job" to protect the innocent in all cases I happen upon... Why is then not incumbent on me to go out in search of innocents to protect..? That is the realm of fictional superheroes or "Unbreakable" characters.

    An apt, current allegory is the case of the man protecting the property of another, as recently demonstrated by the CCW permit holder who shot at youths running away from a cell phone store with stolen merchandise. In his own words "I'm not a cowboy," he said. "I'm not a hero. I was just doing what I always try to do: help." His "Helping" landed him in jail.... and I don't know whether they've caught the thieves or not yet. Link to story

    The OP is right.. It is NOT MY JOB to stupidly risk my family's bread winner, my family's home, my family's future, just because I went through a state approved course and qualified on a range so that I could carry a pistol to protect myself and them.

    As to oaths, I have only pledged my allegiance to my flag and to the republic for which it stands... I have never served in the military... I have never served as a policeman. But the oaths for the former can not be convoluted, stretched, or made to encompass life after enlistment. In fact, if it were to encompass life after the initial enlistment, it would not be required to be re-sworn on re-enlistment.

    There is a very fine line between hero and fool. People who try to be heroes usually end up fools. I am reluctant to be either.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  13. #117
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    2,039
    If it is "my job" to protect the innocent in all cases I happen upon... Why is then not incumbent on me to go out in search of innocents to protect..?
    That's just a strawman. Nobody has suggested you should involve yourself "in all cases."

    More importantly, I think it's been made clear that getting involved doesn't mean drawing a weapon. A lot of comments here to the effect of "I can't risk my family and my financial future" are predicated on the idea of pulling out a gun, and that's always the absolute last thing you ever want to do.

    Treo's post above about the guy drawing on a serious situation that turned out to be a domestic thing is a classic case in point. The guy sees a guy get out of a car and approach the teens and he goes on alert. That's pretty much the whole ball of wax right there. He's paying attention and trying to get a read on what's happening. Although he draws, he correctly doesn't shoot because he doesn't know for sure what's going on. Correctly, it's awfully suspicious and he calls it in.

    The prevention of crime and injury is a community responsibility. All able-bodied adults should take an interest in the well-being of their neighbors. CCW owners have neither additional nor lessened regard in the matter.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  14. #118
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    26,698
    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    The prevention of crime and injury is a community responsibility. All able-bodied adults should take an interest in the well-being of their neighbors. CCW owners have neither additional nor lessened regard in the matter.
    Yup. And in that sense it ain't about guns. It's about awareness, willingness to work together as a community in all aspects to erase crime and criminals, and to intelligently use the resources at our disposal. Immediate response isn't always the correct response. Blind response can just as frequently be misuse instead of intelligent use. Hence, the responses by people to first KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON. It ain't as easy as some think. None of which suggests that clear situations with clear potential to stop them don't justify getting directly involved, particularly when it's recognized there are many forms of "involvement" and "help."
    LongRider likes this.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  15. #119
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    7,335
    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    That's just a strawman. Nobody has suggested you should involve yourself "in all cases."

    More importantly, I think it's been made clear that getting involved doesn't mean drawing a weapon. A lot of comments here to the effect of "I can't risk my family and my financial future" are predicated on the idea of pulling out a gun, and that's always the absolute last thing you ever want to do.

    Treo's post above about the guy drawing on a serious situation that turned out to be a domestic thing is a classic case in point. The guy sees a guy get out of a car and approach the teens and he goes on alert. That's pretty much the whole ball of wax right there. He's paying attention and trying to get a read on what's happening. Although he draws, he correctly doesn't shoot because he doesn't know for sure what's going on. Correctly, it's awfully suspicious and he calls it in.

    The prevention of crime and injury is a community responsibility. All able-bodied adults should take an interest in the well-being of their neighbors. CCW owners have neither additional nor lessened regard in the matter.
    With that I can agree... And, in all honesty, I misquoted the OP, who (while conspicuously absent from the resultant melee his post started) did not suggest that it was incumbent upon us to do so (involve ourselves in all cases)...

    That said... many posts (by one some have chosen to ignore, apparently) appear to muster the mall ninjas present. What with our all "being part of the militia" fighting against not only the tyranny of government; but of individuals, too. And, obviously insinuating that those who have a CCW are more obligated to help and more able to do so than the average citizen. Though in the end, he does start to back off... Suggesting that using a cel phone may constitute getting involved... where earlier, he was disparaging of one who chose to do so.

    I have been a good citizen... I have reported crime, I have been a good witness, I have even disclosed (not brandished) my weapon (in what I consider to be pre-emptive self defense). I have come to the aid of a woman being assaulted by an angry, drunk ex-husband who was assaulting her and terrorizing their down syndrome child (and I was unarmed at the time).

    While I beleive in doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do, I just don't believe someone else has the right to tell me that I should do any of those things at my own peril...

    And, if I call someone to task for the things I think they may not have done, or might not do when they are "called upon" to do them... While insinuating that I have in fact done those things and that they are less than worthy for not doing them. I will not say "I don't advertise..."


    Though I like to think I have been pretty good at assesing the level of threats in and around my own life... None of us is perfect at making spilt second decisions... If anything, the instant availability of a handgun might make me a bit slower to be certain of my course of action. Hopefully, and historically (in my case) those who might cause me to actually use said weapon, will be a bit slower than I.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  16. #120
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    2,618
    All those responding who are saying they would not go charging guns blazing into a situation they knew nothing about. Great!! Good to hear that. I agree, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic or my original post.

    I did not make a single reference to using a gun. The topic has nothing to do with whether or not a person even carries a gun. While a gun may come into play in different scenarios that really is not relevant. As it is not a tactical question about how you would respond. Instead the question would be, Would you stand up or do nothing when an act of evil act is being committed in your presence? Not, would you use your gun.

    The topic also has nothing to do with scenarios where someone does not know what is going on. The only scenario relevant to this topic. Is the one in which you KNOW that there is an act of evil being committed in your presence. Meaning an act in which another human being is being victimized. I thought I was clear on that point, maybe not. To clarify, when I used the phrases "in the face of evil" and "see an evil act being committed" it meant that you are fully aware of the crime being committed in your presence. I used those phrases as I am now rather than detailing the whole list of evil acts that can occur in the presence of another. In hopes of trimming down an already rather verbose post and avoid having the topic derailed into discussions about specific scenarios.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXD View Post
    I assume you've all heard of Kitty Genovese?
    THANK YOU for posting this. I clearly remember when that happened. It was on the news every night for a month. To this day I remember my Dad looking over at us boys, I was nine, the oldest and saying "if you even think about bringing shame like that to our family name, and, just stand there while a woman is murdered. Don't come back because you will not have a home here." He meant exactly what he said and his opinion was pretty much the same as most folks back than.

    This is the clearest example of what I am talking about. Those who would do nothing, may not be able to understand or able to accept this, as fact. The truth is there was a time in America when people did not just stand by and watch, taking pictures for U-Tube while someone was being raped, robbed, assaulted, or murdered. It was incomprehensible back than and still is to me.

    When this story happened it made national news. The headline for a what seems like a month. Nightly on different news programs ministers, shrinks experts discussing this "National Disgrace". That is what it was being called a "National Disgrace". They asked what kind of spineless cowards were these people. How could people stand by and do nothing while a human being was being murdered. Teachers even talked about it in class. As I recall that the common consensus was it was New York. Those people are mostly foreigners not real Americans. That would never happen around here with real Americans.

    I am not trying to insult or attack anyone. I am trying to have those who would do nothing to reconsider their position. I understand that "Do Nothing" is the norm in America today. I and those like me are the oddballs. I get that. What you may not understand is how disheartening even alarming it is to realize this once Great Nation has changed so much.

    As one poster said these are ethos that are dated back from the 1950's. He is right in part. I'm saying those old ethics and codes of conduct worked better than "Do Nothing, stand by and watch". They are old, they go back even farther back than the 1950's to this nations roots. We as a nation had to depend upon one another, just to survive. Working together for the common good is what made us a Great Nation. By the 1950's things began to change. I believe that there have been some real negative consequences. You may have noticed this attitude of its all about ME, Me Myself and I has not been working very well.

    As a nation we have empowered the criminals to the point that we are afraid them. Even afraid they will have us jailed, as many have posted here. Doesn't that strike anyone as insane?

    We have given the police and government so much power we are afraid of them. too. Who has not had that feeling of discomfort nervousness by the presence of police? Or the presence of the government in every area of our lives? Used to be a cop was a welcome presence, one of the good guys. One of "US".

    I am not saying there are no risks and consequences for doing the right thing. There are. I am saying that there are also consequences for not doing the right thing.
    Last edited by LongRider; August 10th, 2010 at 10:53 PM.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ... 4567891011 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

not my job

Click on a term to search for related topics.