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Not my job

10K views 156 replies 54 participants last post by  kpw 
#1 ·
I hear a lot of talk about "Rights" on these forums, but very little about duties and obligations. So I wanted to share this with all those who insist that standing up doing the right thing in the face of evil is not their job. Some go as far as being insulting making disparaging remarks about those that do stand up to stop an assault, robbery, rape or murder. There are those who proudly advocate running and hiding as if that is the honorable thing to do, again insulting anyone who would do otherwise. Remember all the snide insults thrown at Joe Horn when he stood up for his neighbors property. Not just by the media and Al Sharpton but by many on these boards as well.

I was raised differently. I was taught we are all citizens of a community and a nation. As citizens we have duties and obligations to each other. Being an American is not just about rights and privileges we are entitled to but also about responsibilities, duties and obligations to each other. Looking out for each other is our job, not the governments. Liberty and Freedom are not free.


Would be warriors in waiting Getting help when you need it
Sir Robert Peel, “The Father of Modern Policing.” proclaimed, “...the police are the public and the public are the police: the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties, which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interest of community welfare and existence.”

A History of Citizen Assistance
In 1966, on the University of Austin Campus there was a citizen, who assisted Ramiro Martinez and Houston McCoy, when they confronted Charles Whitman, the tower sniper.

In 1970 a citizen picked up one of the four downed officers’ guns and drove off their attackers with gun fire in Newhall California, where those four officers died.

There were citizens who assisted — and even gave their lives — alongside police officers and fire fighters at the World Trade Center on September 11th.

In 2007, inside a Wendy’s in Salt Lake City Eric Fullerton, a Vietnam Veteran and former member of the 101st Airborne Division disarmed and restrained a vicious cop killer and held him until officers arrived to arrest the suspect.
Obviously the article is talking about the REQUIREMENT of citizens to aid police when asked to do so. I of course am asserting that we are also REQUIRED to act in defense of others. If not by law than my moral obligation, national duty and honor, if being an American is to mean anything. That is what has always made America Great because we have, the best people on earth. Yes, we ARE better than the rest if we live up to what it is to be an American.

This me first. Standing by doing nothing, let the government police handle it IS what has brought this nation to where are today. WE, you and I are the ones responsible for the increasingly oppressive government and rampant crime that identifies our country today. Doing nothing makes us complicit in the crime and loss of liberty. The criminal depends upon citizens to aid and abet them by doing nothing. The government depends upon citizens wanting to be taken care of protected to justify stripping us of our liberties and rights.

Martin Luther King, Jr once said
Martin Luther King said:
"Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?' Expediency asks the question, 'Is it politic?' Vanity asks the question, 'Is it popular?' But, conscience asks the question, 'Is it right?'

And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but one must take it because... one's conscience tells one that it is right."
So when you see an evil act being committed before running away and hiding consider is it REALLY the RIGHT thing to do. Is it how you would want others to act if it was your wife, mother or daughter being victimized. Even that bone headed neighbor is an American and deserves to be treated with respect not only by the government but even more so by each of us.
 
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#116 ·
Somebody here (paraphrasing Mas Ayoob, I believe) frequently uses the phrase "Totality of the situation."

None of us can determine the "totality of a situation" (UNLESS we are the ones being directly threatened) in the ~1.5 seconds it takes to draw, aim, and perhaps fire.

I will help my fellow man, I will do what I can, reasonably, to help in any given situation... I will not ignore a suspicious situation... But that does not mean I will go in GUNZABLAZIN, KILL 'EM ALL AND LET GOD SORT 'EM OUT.

Defending innocents at any cost, with no regard to personal peril is not logical, it is not prudent, not sane. It is martyrdom, and very possibly, for the wrong reason.

If it is "my job" to protect the innocent in all cases I happen upon... Why is then not incumbent on me to go out in search of innocents to protect..? That is the realm of fictional superheroes or "Unbreakable" characters.

An apt, current allegory is the case of the man protecting the property of another, as recently demonstrated by the CCW permit holder who shot at youths running away from a cell phone store with stolen merchandise. In his own words "I'm not a cowboy," he said. "I'm not a hero. I was just doing what I always try to do: help." His "Helping" landed him in jail.... and I don't know whether they've caught the thieves or not yet. Link to story

The OP is right.. It is NOT MY JOB to stupidly risk my family's bread winner, my family's home, my family's future, just because I went through a state approved course and qualified on a range so that I could carry a pistol to protect myself and them.

As to oaths, I have only pledged my allegiance to my flag and to the republic for which it stands... I have never served in the military... I have never served as a policeman. But the oaths for the former can not be convoluted, stretched, or made to encompass life after enlistment. In fact, if it were to encompass life after the initial enlistment, it would not be required to be re-sworn on re-enlistment.

There is a very fine line between hero and fool. People who try to be heroes usually end up fools. I am reluctant to be either.
 
#117 ·
If it is "my job" to protect the innocent in all cases I happen upon... Why is then not incumbent on me to go out in search of innocents to protect..?
That's just a strawman. Nobody has suggested you should involve yourself "in all cases."

More importantly, I think it's been made clear that getting involved doesn't mean drawing a weapon. A lot of comments here to the effect of "I can't risk my family and my financial future" are predicated on the idea of pulling out a gun, and that's always the absolute last thing you ever want to do.

Treo's post above about the guy drawing on a serious situation that turned out to be a domestic thing is a classic case in point. The guy sees a guy get out of a car and approach the teens and he goes on alert. That's pretty much the whole ball of wax right there. He's paying attention and trying to get a read on what's happening. Although he draws, he correctly doesn't shoot because he doesn't know for sure what's going on. Correctly, it's awfully suspicious and he calls it in.

The prevention of crime and injury is a community responsibility. All able-bodied adults should take an interest in the well-being of their neighbors. CCW owners have neither additional nor lessened regard in the matter.
 
#118 ·
The prevention of crime and injury is a community responsibility. All able-bodied adults should take an interest in the well-being of their neighbors. CCW owners have neither additional nor lessened regard in the matter.
Yup. And in that sense it ain't about guns. It's about awareness, willingness to work together as a community in all aspects to erase crime and criminals, and to intelligently use the resources at our disposal. Immediate response isn't always the correct response. Blind response can just as frequently be misuse instead of intelligent use. Hence, the responses by people to first KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON. It ain't as easy as some think. None of which suggests that clear situations with clear potential to stop them don't justify getting directly involved, particularly when it's recognized there are many forms of "involvement" and "help."
 
#134 ·
I guess you're going to have to explain your experience in the matter...because there are consequences for every action, and I think it's been explained well enough for people to THINK before they ACT.

So, in your 30+ years of experience of carrying (you know, finding evil everywhere and you take down the BGs with your firearm without consequence)--explain your in-depth, first-hand knowledge of the after-effects of a self-defense shooting where you did not have a duty to intervene. If you look back in this thread, I've asked this before...only to be ignored...which is fine by me.

But for you to condemn those who choose the health, safety, and security of their family vs the unknown circumstances surrounding the events of a stranger , is why I take issue with this.

BTW--we're not talking children or whatever scenario-based excuse you use to justify your opinion...I want to know what YOUR experience is..WHY? It goes to your credibility that you assume (because you "don't advertise)--here's your chance to share.
 
#123 ·
Wow, this is quite the heated topic. I, for one will let the situation dictate my actions. No two situations will present themselves the same. I can see both sides of the fence where I am standing and have been the "hero", but I knew the facts that led me in that direction. I have also been the "good witness" Though it is true that not all events end in litigation, in this day and age, alot do. Those arguing for being a good witness have a founded argument that they, more than likely have a responsibility to someone other than themselves and to forsake the safety and comfort of those other entities would be breaking an honor that they have promised, either through virtue of marriage or parenthood or some other guiding force. Those that would intervene in one way or another also have an honor to uphold. one of putting all life above their own. Each upbringing will provide a different code to live by. Just because someone will not act in the same manner that I would does not make it wrong, just different. We all have to live with the decisions that we make everyday.
I will make an educated decision with every action I choose to take in each situation. If hindsight is 20/20, then so be it. I will sleep in that bed I have made.

inaction is the only poor decision IMO.

There is only one all knowing, and in the end he will be the judge as to whether we have done right or wrong.

Sandman
 
#124 ·
Lots talk about jumping in and helping a woman. What if you heard screams from a female coming from inside a parking garage. You walk in and this guy and girl are fighting, there's blood, it looks like a pretty bad scene. The guy is doing his best to gain physical control and the female is screaming help, help!!!!!!! he's beating me, he is going to kill me............... you jump in to help and the guys partner who you didn't see, who is also an under cover cop shoots you.

You just never know the situation, even if the victim is a female.

Look at all the times where off duty cops get shot by on duty cops.

It really is too bad but in todays society helping out usually has negative outcomes.
 
#126 ·
What if you .............
What if you read the OP ie post #1 & post #121 and stayed on topic? Thank you

many fall short, but the point is to at least TRY to follow them to be on the path. If you are trying but still fail, GUESS WHAT? you are following the code pretty much,
Exactly, following a code of ethics is not about being perfect. Though there are some absolutes that one should never ever violate. The point is to do your best.
 
#125 ·
Bushido is just like the Ten Commandments, a wonderful philosophy of life that no one actually follows.
Oh some do....I don't (but try) and you most certainly don't but don't think others aren't self sacrificing just because you aren't

The Bushido and Ten Commandments are idealized and many fall short, but the point is to at least TRY to follow them to be on the path. If you are trying but still fail, GUESS WHAT? you are following the code pretty much, you obviously don't try.
 
#127 ·
I agree with the sentiment that each situation must be weighed carefully. While I would not think to abandon someone in true need of aid, my first responsibility in life is to my family. My wife,my boy and my little girl depend on me being there for them. Every choice I make has them as the #1 consideration. They a constant in each equation that is presented to me. If I end up dead or in jail, I have FAILED them. "Walking the path" is great, and trying to do so puts us ahead of the narcissistic majority, but for me that path always leads back home to my family.
 
#128 ·
Rather Bushido and the Ten Commandments outline a wonderful way to live.
Not to derail anything here. But I think there's some confusion.

If you study the Hagakure, then you probably are acquainted with Taoist thought as well as Zen Buddhism. Maybe some people respect that. It's almost mandatory if you're following the way of the warrior. But then, I get the sense that the 10 Commandments are being brought in as an afterthought. Sorta like, gee, if we're talking about a code of conduct, can't leave the Commandments out!

But the Hagakure and the fabled tables of Moses are very different texts and they don't overlap. The Japanese imprisoned, killed, and drove the western missionaries out of their country because of the conflict between traditional budo and bujitsu and western dogma. So you can follow the classical warrior path if you want, but that's a complex and difficult philosophy. The Old Testament Commandments about "no adultery" and "no banging the neighbor's wife" etc. are well and good, but they aren't a path or a Way of Life.

George Carlin explained this pretty well. Like he says, it's a padded list. It's basically just "don't be bad," "don't lie." Not much more profound than Bill and Ted's "be excellent to one another." Which is a good policy! But in terms of a living philosophy, it's a Bazooka Joe comic when compared to something as detailed and all-encompassing as bushido.
 
#129 · (Edited by Moderator)
So what you would prefer to hold everyone else’s actions to one prescribed course of action (I will hence forth call it a dogma)? In a situation that can have such a high level impact there are different ways to cut it and still come out with what is to that individual the right answer. Holding everyone to one dogma in complicated situations is great when its your dogma, but what about when it’s a dogma different then yours. Maybe its liberalism, maybe its respect to your fellow members of society, maybe its practicality, whatever it is it does not seem bad.
 
#130 ·
So what you would prefer to hold everyone else’s actions to one prescribed course of action
If there's one thing I'll never do in this life, it would be that. Just pointing out that tacking the 10 Commandments onto bushido is a categorical error. "I blend the two of them together to make my own code of living" is a valiant objective, but it's isn't meaningful. Exactly what concepts of the Hagakure does one map onto the Old Testament? I'd like to see a cogent explanation of that that helps one to understand and execute deadly force when necessary.

Rather, what I think is more likely, is that what we've seen expressed here is a statement to the effect of: "Gee those samurai were real bad-ass dudes and so they're cool. I'd like to be cool like that. I'm also a Christian. So whatever I say about samurai stuff, I gotta be sure and mention the Bible, so nobody thinks I'm down with that Asian mumbo-jumbo." And that's OK, but I thought it's better to be clear in the terminology.
 
#132 ·
I get the concept of helping our fellow man and I have done so in the past. What I don’t accept is the mindset that says I’m some kind of modern day Ronin because I happen to carry a gun. There are something like 10,000 CHP holders in El Paso County but only one of them got to be Jeanne Assam ( Who BTW is now changing her story about the shooting coincident W/ her new book coming out. Just sayin’ )

Similarly, 99% of us will never be in a position to stop a jewelry store in the mall from being robbed or a woman from getting raped in a parking garage but, I believe, that there are a lot of people who carry guns hopping to be involved in such an event. And even if such an event never occurs they feel that their life has meaning because they took on the role of “protector of the flock”.

I believe this is a very dangerous mindset for any gun owner to have because it may cause them to push an issue that doesn’t need to be pushed in their eagerness to become a “hero”.

There used to be a group in Colorado Springs called “The Citizen’s CB Patrol” they claimed to be the neighborhood watch but what they really were was a bunch of vigilantes. They’d dress up in black BDUs and drive around the Southgate area of Co Springs in their old beater cars looking for “suspicious activity” to report to the police. Then’ they’d all go sit at the IHOP and tell each other what a bunch of bad asses they were. I laughed my ass off every time I saw them and that’s where some of this talk of living by “the code takes me. I truly and honestly believe that it’s just another form of self aggrandizement coupled W/ delusions of grandeur.

I’m sorry if my assessment offends some of you but that’s where I am W/ it.
 
#135 ·
Your continue to see the focus of this thread as my experiences, as opposed to morality and values.

You divert attention from your indefensible position by putting words in my mouth. Did I say I find evil everywhere? Did I say I used a firearm with impunity? Did I suggest subordinating the safety of family for unknown circumstances? No, of course I didn't. There's a phrase in a previous post in this thread that described your m.o. to a tee - "ad hominem." I actually had to look up "ad hominem." It means defending your position by finding flaws in the character of your adversary. Well, trust me, I have plenty of flaws -but apathy isn't one of them - so if a stranger is in peril, I help.

The thread is about intervening on behalf of a stranger. Many feel their own safety to be too big a sacrifice to intervene, so they run or use a cell phone, and you're clearly in that camp. Don't rationalize your position challenging my decisions - you'd leave a stranger in need to avoid jeopardizing your safety. You said it. Live with it.
 
#137 ·
Can we put this thread to rest? It's getting a bit too personal and heated.

There are those who put their personal safety and liability concerns ahead of intervening in behalf of others, and there are those who do not. Neither will change the mind of the other. It's a personal choice. Make a decision; live with the consequences.
 
#143 ·
There is a continuum of possible situations that could be encountered. Four possible categories of "getting involved":

1. Most likely not.
You're wise enough to know better.

2. Probably not.
Watch, maybe ask a question. Maybe call it in. Maybe do nothing.

3. Your call.
Depends on all kinds of stuff. Where you are, who you're with, what you're carrying, odds of success vs risk of failure.

4. No thinking required.
You respond automatically.

Perhaps some of the strong exchanges here are due to confusion over which category of situation is being envisioned.
 
#144 ·
Public transportation system. Woman was being accosted. I stepped in, got stabbed, choked him out. Gun wasn't drawn. Assailant arrested. I got stitched up.

Visiting a local pawn shop. Armed robber entered, "stick em up". He held gun pointed at owner, didn't watch me. I shot 2 times to times to midsection w 357 Colt Lawman (if that tells you how long ago this was). Dropped him, which is hard to understand, because he lived, got convicted and got 7 years. I was arrested, DA dropped charges. Cost $4000 for attorney.
 
#146 ·
Interesting. Wise DA. And the charges you were arrested for? I'm assuming defending yourself (or others) wasn't a crime at the time.
 
#147 ·
I've never stood back yet on anything, so ... why start now.

I have to say that one thing some have asked / told me later, "why did you do that .... no one else would have .... and because of that I"m alive". Because , it was the "right" thing to do.

That sir, I"ll take to my grave with me .... and smile , that I made a difference, more than once ..... in someone's life.

Risks ? You bet there has been, but I also had to live with myself afterwards.
 
#151 ·
Local news stories
 
#152 ·
When were you born Treo? I have zero recollection if either event made the paper - in large cities that kind of thing doesn't make the news. They both happened before anyone ever heard of PCs, let alone the Internet.
Maybe I can give you my social security number and you can check my credit too.
 
#153 ·
Not my job . . . to referee either.

Stuck with this thread for days-interested in the thoughts of members about coming to the aid of victim(s) of evil happening in my presence/proximity.

This is where I jump off. Thanks for everyone's input. Hope you guys work it out.
 
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