Not my job

This is a discussion on Not my job within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I hear a lot of talk about "Rights" on these forums, but very little about duties and obligations. So I wanted to share this with ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Not my job

    I hear a lot of talk about "Rights" on these forums, but very little about duties and obligations. So I wanted to share this with all those who insist that standing up doing the right thing in the face of evil is not their job. Some go as far as being insulting making disparaging remarks about those that do stand up to stop an assault, robbery, rape or murder. There are those who proudly advocate running and hiding as if that is the honorable thing to do, again insulting anyone who would do otherwise. Remember all the snide insults thrown at Joe Horn when he stood up for his neighbors property. Not just by the media and Al Sharpton but by many on these boards as well.

    I was raised differently. I was taught we are all citizens of a community and a nation. As citizens we have duties and obligations to each other. Being an American is not just about rights and privileges we are entitled to but also about responsibilities, duties and obligations to each other. Looking out for each other is our job, not the governments. Liberty and Freedom are not free.


    Would be warriors in waiting Getting help when you need it
    Sir Robert Peel, “The Father of Modern Policing.” proclaimed, “...the police are the public and the public are the police: the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties, which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interest of community welfare and existence.”

    A History of Citizen Assistance
    In 1966, on the University of Austin Campus there was a citizen, who assisted Ramiro Martinez and Houston McCoy, when they confronted Charles Whitman, the tower sniper.

    In 1970 a citizen picked up one of the four downed officers’ guns and drove off their attackers with gun fire in Newhall California, where those four officers died.

    There were citizens who assisted — and even gave their lives — alongside police officers and fire fighters at the World Trade Center on September 11th.

    In 2007, inside a Wendy’s in Salt Lake City Eric Fullerton, a Vietnam Veteran and former member of the 101st Airborne Division disarmed and restrained a vicious cop killer and held him until officers arrived to arrest the suspect.
    Obviously the article is talking about the REQUIREMENT of citizens to aid police when asked to do so. I of course am asserting that we are also REQUIRED to act in defense of others. If not by law than my moral obligation, national duty and honor, if being an American is to mean anything. That is what has always made America Great because we have, the best people on earth. Yes, we ARE better than the rest if we live up to what it is to be an American.

    This me first. Standing by doing nothing, let the government police handle it IS what has brought this nation to where are today. WE, you and I are the ones responsible for the increasingly oppressive government and rampant crime that identifies our country today. Doing nothing makes us complicit in the crime and loss of liberty. The criminal depends upon citizens to aid and abet them by doing nothing. The government depends upon citizens wanting to be taken care of protected to justify stripping us of our liberties and rights.

    Martin Luther King, Jr once said
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Luther King, Jr
    "Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?' Expediency asks the question, 'Is it politic?' Vanity asks the question, 'Is it popular?' But, conscience asks the question, 'Is it right?'

    And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but one must take it because... one's conscience tells one that it is right."
    So when you see an evil act being committed before running away and hiding consider is it REALLY the RIGHT thing to do. Is it how you would want others to act if it was your wife, mother or daughter being victimized. Even that bone headed neighbor is an American and deserves to be treated with respect not only by the government but even more so by each of us.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array gilraen's Avatar
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    It depends on the price you want (or would have) to pay for involvement. Some prices are higher than others. Some, people are willing to pay. Others, people are not.

    To condemn for not doing is no better and no worse than to condemn for doing.
    "I pledge allegiance to the war banner of the united states of Totalitaria. And to the Republic, which no longer stands, several bankers, who are now god, indivisible, with Bernanke bucks and credit for all."

  4. #3
    New Member Array Digital's Avatar
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    That's all fine and good but who's going to pay for my legal fees? The community might be all supportive when you save them from a mass murderer but when his family sues where are they for cash support?
    Will they share the jail cell with you or be there with you when you fill out an application or do a back ground check? I doubt it. People forget too quick now.
    I think people would be better off educating the masses how to not be victims and defend themselves vs taking it upon themselves to defend them and save them from being victims.

    That being said every situation has its merits and it's easy to sit behind a keyboard and rationalize a situation till someone is being raped and beaten by a few thugs in front of you.

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    Member Array hardworker's Avatar
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    If we lived in a perfect world where good will was rewarded then maybe intervening would be a better idea. Sadly we don't, and instead people trying to help out get thrown in jail or sued for everything they're worth. Once there was a deputy here where I live pulling a man over. The man got out of the car and started attacking the deputy. Some other guy decided to help so he fired his shotgun in the air and the dude hit the deck. After arresting the first dude the second dude was also arrested for illegal discharge of a firearm.

  6. #5
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    OP, I have to agree with you for the most part.

    Call it due to my upbringing or military service, but I don't think I could stand by when a person's life is in danger, given there's a resonable expectation of suceeding in assisting. Being nothing but a "good witness" isn't helping the individual in need. Nothing sets me off more than these news reports of someone being beaten/murdered when the crowd does nothing--other than whip out cell phones for pictures to post on youtube.

    The "all about me" attitudes and fear of litigation has turned us into an insensitive society. It's so easy to not get involved.

    Each of us has to make our own decisions--and we have to live with them afterwards. Make a decision; live with the consequences.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    Here's another viewpoint to consider:

    http://www.stoppingpower.net/comment...tervention.asp

    I'm not saying I would never intervene, but my point is that this is a decision that must be weight VERY carefully. The consequences can be life-altering even if you "win" the confrontation.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

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    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    " All that is nessessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". Edmund Burke
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

    "A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".

    http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

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    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    I
    Obviously the article is talking about the REQUIREMENT of citizens to aid police when asked to do so. I of course am asserting that we are also REQUIRED to act in defense of others. If not by law than my moral obligation, national duty and honor, if being an American is to mean anything. That is what has always made America Great because we have, the best people on earth. Yes, we ARE better than the rest if we live up to what it is to be an American.
    Not all people see their moral obligations the same way. Also honor, seriously, I don’t think avoiding a rash life altering decision because you do not have all the facts is anti honor. Honestly I have not interest in getting in a mostly bank breaking decision that I don’t know the details to.

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    While I have advocated not doing anything, and interceding, both; all situations are unique.

    I'm not going to wait for a situation to develop, especially if the situation is not clear.

    I fully beleive it is my moral duty to get involved if I am in a position to do so. I will not do so if I put people at risk of further danger. But there are many variables. Each case is different.

    I am not going to shoot at fleeing suspects who have just run off from a cel phone store with a couple of phones...
    If I walk into a drugstore and there is a gunman waving a shotgun around, I'm probably going to engage.
    If I walk into a store late at night and some "oddie" is wandering around the store not doing anything but being peculiar... I'm not jumping in... there could be some other dynamic occuring of which I am unaware.

    Each case is different (I know, I already said that).

    Based on the scenarios presented here, I give my best considered response based on the scenario outlined. I may do the complete opposite IRL... I may not.

    This interwebby thing brings alot of folk together, some here may not have a PCW (CCW, what have you) but say they'd take out all the BG's with no compunction, and carry on like nothing happened. Some give considered responses based on experience or training. Some run into the nearest phonebooth to change into their superhero outfits...

    I look at the scenarios presented, try to learn from them, consider them, and post what I beleive my actions would be. If I am unsure, I don't post.

    But the OP has no right to judge anyone here for stated possible actions that may or may not actualy be taken IRL.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I'd be more worried about going hole and telling my wife and kids what I saw and telling them I was a good witness......of a beating, rape or murder. I don't know about anyone else, and I don't care, but I surely wouldn't be too proud to tell them I did nothing. I come from a family of attorneys, so I understand the "civil" liabilities argument. I guess living in a free state that protects us from that in a clean shoot has aided in my opinion.

    This should go without saying, but apparently here we need to do so - I would only get involved if my not getting involved would lead to the death or great bodily harm of another. Not when it's over and I shoot him in the back, even that thought is ridiculous - as I feel having to say it, but if I don't......
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    Ex Member Array WhoWeBePart1's Avatar
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    I have asked how could I stand by and watch another human get killed or seriously harmed in front of me and a lot of responses where "you are not the police" "be a good witness" "you don't know all the facts"

    Not that long ago a local man ran into a store, stabbed a woman and ran away. When I commented on the story online and said I would have been nothing but a good witness I was called a liberal and a coward.

    The line for helping is so thin it is scary. As others have said you most likely will get sued if you do step in but if you don't then you are labeled something else.

    I think we need to stop the frivolous law suits and allow those that do step in greater protection but at the current time we do not have that so at this moment I'm going to go with run away, hide and become a good witness. I don't have a lot and don't need the little I do have taken away by some idiot who committed a crime and now they want to sue me for helping out a fellow human.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital View Post
    That's all fine and good but who's going to pay for my legal fees? The community might be all supportive when you save them from a mass murderer but when his family sues where are they for cash support?
    Will they share the jail cell with you or be there with you when you fill out an application or do a back ground check? I doubt it. People forget too quick now.
    I think people would be better off educating the masses how to not be victims and defend themselves vs taking it upon themselves to defend them and save them from being victims.

    That being said every situation has its merits and it's easy to sit behind a keyboard and rationalize a situation till someone is being raped and beaten by a few thugs in front of you.
    Justified SD, whether for you or another party, is protected from civil suits in FL. You should know that.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School View Post
    " All that is nessessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". Edmund Burke
    Amen to that.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    They can have it, I'm living on credit anyway! It's a joke.....
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoWeBePart1 View Post
    I have asked how could I stand by and watch another human get killed or seriously harmed in front of me and a lot of responses where "you are not the police" "be a good witness" "you don't know all the facts"

    Not that long ago a local man ran into a store, stabbed a woman and ran away. When I commented on the story online and said I would have been nothing but a good witness I was called a liberal and a coward.

    The line for helping is so thin it is scary. As others have said you most likely will get sued if you do step in but if you don't then you are labeled something else.

    I think we need to stop the frivolous law suits and allow those that do step in greater protection but at the current time we do not have that so at this moment I'm going to go with run away, hide and become a good witness. I don't have a lot and don't need the little I do have taken away by some idiot who committed a crime and now they want to sue me for helping out a fellow human.
    No, having a CW license doesn't make us LEOs. If you could have prevented the attack by using your firearm, that would most likely been a justified SD. I say likely due to the many variences in state laws. Once the BG had committed the assault and turned to flee, it would not be correct for you to use deadly force as the attack is over.

    Do most good samaritans get sued? I doubt it. I imagine if truth be told, it's probably more of a rarity. And then how many actually lose? Fewer yet? I refuse to live my life in fear of BGs or lawyers.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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