Innocent to not so much in 2.5 seconds... - Page 2

Innocent to not so much in 2.5 seconds...

This is a discussion on Innocent to not so much in 2.5 seconds... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by AzB This is why I don't pull so close to the vehicle in front when I stop. Also, driving a small, more ...

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  1. #16
    Senior Member Array DaveJay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    This is why I don't pull so close to the vehicle in front when I stop.

    Also, driving a small, more maneuverable car is an advantage here as well. First step is to GET AWAY!

    If he's unarmed, no escalation but my hand will be on my gun. If he's armed, I will use the car, my gun, whatever to end the threat.
    Spot On!!!!

    In a previous life, I took a course called "Dynamics of International Terrorism"...

    One day is spent teaching defensive driving...not your typical defensive driving, but how to drive to avoid or quickly get out of incidents...

    One point that I always use is, at a stop light...stop so you an see the rear bumper of the vehicle in front of you...so that no matter what size vehicle you drive, you will have enough room to get out of that spot...

    Second point in that lesson (the harder one to do all the time)...is to be in a lane at the stop light where you have an open space on at least one side to take advantage of that space you have created...it could be a medium...it could be a sidewalk...or a turn lane...
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    Around here, all the locals know a green light lasts a nanosecond and the red stays red until the next ice age, so they are likely to be glad you honked. Usually I have a rather large dog riding with me. Folks must all be dog lovers, because nobody seems to want to get nasty when he is along.

    However, if I don't have my copilot with me and some idiot wants to batter his way into my truck, for his safety I would draw and keep the pistol below window level. I am not brandishing, it is 100% legal to have a pistol in my vehicle in plain sight, and having taken care of the 'ready' and the 'aim', I suspect our road rager would remember urgent business elsewhere.

    Unless the road rager is female or very, very old, there is a disparety of force, and if someone can smash in the side window of a car, they have both the means and intent to do serious injury or cause death. I have no reasonable avenue of escape. I have met the legal requirements to use deadly force to defend my life. I feel that I have also met the moral requirements.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    This is why I don't pull so close to the vehicle in front when I stop.

    Also, driving a small, more maneuverable car is an advantage here as well. First step is to GET AWAY!

    If he's unarmed, no escalation but my hand will be on my gun. If he's armed, I will use the car, my gun, whatever to end the threat.

    ^^^^^This is key in avoidance of an escalated situation^^^^^^^^


    Someone in the next lane most likely will let you over; If single lane you will use shoulder, pop a curb, whatever it takes to get away safely;;;;; as long as you leave space to do so!!!



    Quote Originally Posted by goldshellback View Post
    This is sticky in that it'll be ruled a road-rage regardless of your intent (heads-up honk). You draw 'after' the situation escalates 'if' he attempts to gain entry with a tool or whatever.

    As for as the way your situation unfolded. I'm sitting still with dispath on the cell phone. I'd try to inform them I'm armed and will not fire as long as this raging idiot dosn't try to get inside. I 'may' unholster my sidearm and have it beside me......I wouldn't, however, brandish or show it in any way if I can help it. No telling where that'll end up..... in court, in the street....just displaying a gun will make you look BAD in the eyes of those who'll show up, investigate, and judge you. Now, if a motivated effort is made by our raging idiot to get inside my vehicle...........at least, I hope, I've got dispatch on the phone and I remembered to 'verbilize' what's happening and just how fearful I am/was.




    Good 'thinking' sceaniro. I'll give a courtesy tap on my horn in that kind of a situation myself. Nowadays you just never know.


    ^^^^^This is a good piece of advice to use as a guideline, dependant upon state laws regarding weapons.^^^^^^^




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  4. #19
    Senior Member Array EvilMonk's Avatar
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    Interesting replies.

    Good point made by retsupt99 about seeing the tires of the forward vehicle.

    I wear my firearm in crossdraw with my shirt pulled back, and the seatbelt tucked under the grip for maximized access, It also makes for an obvious (to the enraged window denizen) deterent if/when they notice it. I might keep my hand next to it without actually placing the grip in my hand, but then again, my only witness to this non-act would/might be the idiot at my door.

    I would hope that seeing such a thing might cool down the rage a little, but anyone stupid enough to get into this scenario wouldn't be getting any benefit of the doubt from me...
    That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...

    Donít mess with the guy who can barely stand up. His remaining options for self-defense don't include your survival.

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  5. #20
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    If he breaks my window, hit him with my door to gain some distance then defend myself. If he has no weapon I will use my body.
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  6. #21
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    This is why I don't pull so close to the vehicle in front when I stop.
    Important! I always try to stop where I can see the bottom of the other person's tires. Generally this gives you enough room to do whatever you like.

    Bit IF I stopped where I couldn't maneuver around, and IF this guy started going crazy, my reaction depends on a lot of variables. Does he have a weapon? If not I'm not drawing, I'm calling the cops. If he has a weapon and I'm in fear for my life, it depends on what he has and what he drives. If it's something that's not too big I may just drop it into 4-wheel low and run his unlucky, soon-to-be piece of crap over. I drive a Wrangler with 4-5" of lift and 33" tires. Running it over serves two purposes. It gets me the heck out of Dodge without having to shoot anyone, and it gives the guy what he deserves for being such an uncivilized member of society.

    Assuming I can't run it over though, with a weapon I'm drawing and giving loud instructions to him so everyone can hear what's going on. I want good witnesses. If no weapon I'll call the cops and let him throw his little tantrum. Then I'll file charges and his bank account will pay to fix my vehicle.

    But seriously guys, it's good practice to leave space anyway. Like I said i like to stop so I can see the bottom of their tires on the ground. It allows you to maneuver around them if needed and also helps prevent you from nailing them from behind if you get rear-ended.
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  7. #22
    Member Array bsms's Avatar
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    Open carry is legal in AZ, as is concealed. When driving, I pull up my shirt to leave the grip free - which also leaves it plainly visible from the driver's side. Also, AZ allows defensive display - revealing a gun you hope not to use but to let the other person know you are not defenseless.

    Unless he is very big & pissed, or grabs a metal pipe, I wouldn't pull a gun. As others have said, if he gains entry, things change immediately. Someone who beats their way thru a car window is definitely a threat of serious bodily harm or death - but there aren't many who would continue to try to enter a car if they know I am armed.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    If he breaks my window, hit him with my door to gain some distance then defend myself. If he has no weapon I will use my body.
    Why not drive off or move the vehicle?...This includes moving his car out of the way to get some space
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

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  9. #24
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    If he breaks my window, hit him with my door to gain some distance then defend myself. If he has no weapon I will use my body.
    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    Why not drive off or move the vehicle?...This includes moving his car out of the way to get some space
    if there is no escape and he gets to where he breaks the window as the glass comes in a bullet will exit...you can say what you want..i will not have a hand layed on me inside of my vehicle regardless of what transpired before the incident started...it will be met with enough force to eliminate any and all threats...if he is approaching violently he will see me on the phone to 911 and a gun in my hand...

    blowing your horn is not a threat or escalation if there is a reason for it...a wake up toot is a courtesy as far as i'm concerned and if someone uses one on me i give a wave of appretiation...if someone else doesnt like it then they have anger management issues to deal with and if he chooses not to seek proffessional help i will offer incentive for him to do so...

    there is no good reason for someone to approach another in a threatening manner after words or actions in traffic...the law is trained to handle problems on the road and if they are not available i will have any means at my disposal ready to handle the situation...in my convertible i will be armed with pepper spray and my firearm...i will not exit the vehicle and turn it into a "when he saw him coming he got out to fight him" witness scenario...my vehicle is my sanctuary and it will not be compromised...nor will my safety...i will make myself ready to defend...he will have to make some very important decisions that will affect the rest of our day and lives...

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Been there recently as far as the first part goes, see thread below. We were moving so all the hot head could do was yell and make the normal hand gestures. All this over a tap on the horn.

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...-rage-incident

    If I am stopped and he gets out and starts to pound on my truck, especially if he is in front of me so I can get his plate number I guess I let him go and figure at worse I am getting a new paint job from his insurance company. IF he gets sonething that will brake a window then I guess I either have to leave NOW or draw. Since I don't have power windows if he does try to get in through the passinger side window he is going to be looking at the business end of my snubbie.

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Yes, this is a key point. We know that by adopting good habits, we can greatly reduce our odds of being selected as targets for crime. Leaving a bit of space from the car in front of you at stops is always a good policy. If you get rear-ended, it can help avoid you hitting the car in front. And, as here, you might be glad to have an escape route.

    It isn't always possible. But this is one habit that you can adopt and it is something you can control.

    What makes this scenario difficult for me is the question of which car I'm driving. If it's my daily commuter, I don't care and would call 911 and let the clown vent outside the car. But if I'm in my sportscar, we're going to have some problems. For one thing, the top would be down and so there's no safety inside. Seated and buckled in, it would be tough to defend against an attacker from the driver's side. If I saw the driver ahead getting out of his car, I think my best move would be to get out as well and deal with the problem from there.
    Only question here would be, would leaving your car be seen as escalation? Would a jury think that by exiting the car you were challenging the guy to go toe to toe, knowing you were armed and he was not?

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    I don't know Ted...

    But if someone starts towards me with a weapon (bat, golf club, tire iron) in hand, I'm going to move. If it means moving his car out of the way, so be it. Having experienced Iraqis and Afghans beating on my vehicle, I will evade and if the other guy's car gets "scratched"...oh well...I'll have my bluetooth on my cell phone activated and calling 911....and having a police officer meet me. (ideal scenario). either that, or someone has a high probability of getting shot.
    Last edited by SIGguy229; August 9th, 2010 at 05:51 PM. Reason: typo
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  13. #28
    Member Array bsms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    Only question here would be, would leaving your car be seen as escalation? Would a jury think that by exiting the car you were challenging the guy to go toe to toe, knowing you were armed and he was not?
    Gotta agree with shockwave. I've got a 2003 Miata. Fun to toss around, but it offers no protection whatsoever. I usually stop a car length behind the guy in front and in a side lane to give myself some options, but sitting strapped in while some guy beats on me isn't a viable option. If the top is down, stand up in the Miata and let him try to cross it...if he does, then witnesses around will have seen that I've tried to avoid. If the top is up, I'd need to get out ASAP...it is a fun car, but I have to fold myself in, and in my 50s, I don't unfold real fast. And in the car I'm open carry, as I would be when I got out. Even without drawing, it would be pretty obvious I have a gun.

    There are some things you can do to demonstrate that you don't want it to go further, but sometimes you have to protect yourself and let the jury decide if you did it right.

  14. #29
    Ex Member Array Philo Betto's Avatar
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    Given that I drive a 4x4 Powerstroke, I might just drop it in 4x4 lo and push the guy's car into the middle of the intersection...or farther.

  15. #30
    Member Array bomber's Avatar
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    point my gun at him through the window and give him exactly 1 second to change his sinful ways. there is no telling how fast he might pull a weapon, or breach the window.

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