Innocent to not so much in 2.5 seconds...

Innocent to not so much in 2.5 seconds...

This is a discussion on Innocent to not so much in 2.5 seconds... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So... I've been getting my knowledge on in regards to "escalation". Don't flick anyone off Don't use rude language Don't invite further abuse with "Oh ...

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Thread: Innocent to not so much in 2.5 seconds...

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array EvilMonk's Avatar
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    Question Innocent to not so much in 2.5 seconds...

    So...

    I've been getting my knowledge on in regards to "escalation".

    Don't flick anyone off
    Don't use rude language
    Don't invite further abuse with "Oh yeah?" or similar

    But...

    What if you are at a stop light in broad daylight. The light is notorious for being long on red and fast on green, and the guy in front of you is obviously doing something on his cell-phone and doesn't notice the light change. You tap the horn once to give him a "heads up" and then the inexplicable happens.

    He puts his car into park, exits his vehicle and begins raving at you. You're blocked in by his car and those behind you, and he is disadventageously placed so as to prohibit any manuveurs around him. He comes up to your door and yells at the now rolled up window. While you begin dialing the Police on your cell-phone, he begins kicking and striking your vehicle with his fists and continues his verbal tirade.

    Now, the question is:

    If he gets even more out of hand before the PD shows up (because as long as it stays just at this level, I really will just sit there until they get there), and starts trying to beat your windshield in or otherwise attempt access to your vehicle's interior to get at you, would you:

    A. Draw and Defend (at what point)?
    B. Be liable for "escalation" due to your otherwise acceptable single, quick honk on your horn?

    Just seems like it could be a 50/50 thing in court (the "honk")...
    That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...

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  2. #2
    Senior Member Array Macattack's Avatar
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    Scary because it could happen. Road rage is a scary fact now a days. Does he have a tire iron? if not i probably would'nt draw unless he bashed in the window with his fist or elbow but my hand would be on the grip from the moment he got out of his car. Good thing is there is lots of witnesses and you hopefully have reported the license # to the cops you are on the phone with right? For the record i drive a big f150 4x4 with a heavy duty guard on front(aka his car will be moved out of the way for him at no extra charge)
    "In those days, there was a lot more respect for other people and it showed in peoples values.... Today the word value means nothing more than something you get on the $1 menu at McDonald's." -BARK'N

  3. #3
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    I don't usually do the "courtesy honk" until it's been a good 3-4 seconds and most of the time the driver has realized his error by that time.

    However, if things went exactly as you say then I would continue to wait in my car and let him pound the crap out of it until either, a) the police arrive or b) he gains entrance to my vehicle.

    If he's just pounding on my car with his fists he may put some dents in it but I'm not too worried about him getting to me and I will wait it out if I can't get away.

    BUT if he gets a tool, such as a tire iron out and starts coming at my vehicle I'm drawing. He can and probably will gain access quickly and with such a tool/weapon I am in fear for my life.

    Of course I would try to maneuver my car until I could drive away as well. No matter how blocked in you are there is usually enough room to do some wiggling and get away, even if you have to use the sidewalks.

  4. #4
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Lima pretty much nailed it.

    Personally I think I might be inclined to just sit in my vehicle and let him pound away. It's only property, and I'm not going to shoot somebody over property. Once he gains entrance to the vehicle, then the rules of the game change. Until then I will use all passive means of repeling him that I can, to include fleeing if practical and can be done safely.

    Windows up with the doors locked and 911 on the phone. He has until he gains entry, or the local constabulary shows up to decide what he will do with the rest of his life, as I will have already made that decision for him should he gain entry.

    Biker
    Last edited by BikerRN; August 7th, 2010 at 04:28 AM. Reason: typo/clariffication

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    I had something similar happen to me about 13 years ago in Arizona.....a homeless guy walked up to us (a line of car stopped at a stoplight) and started yelling, screaming, and hitting cars. He got to my car and started pounding on the hood...the windshield, the roof and then when I looked at him, he started hitting the window.

    Up until he got to my car, I had my P226 next to me in my range bag....when he got up to my car, I reached into my bag and put my hand on the gun.

    When he pounded on the hood--I remained holstered

    When he pounded on the windshield--I remained holstered

    When he pounded on the roof--I remained holstered

    When he hit my side window--I drew down on him and told him in no uncertain terms he should leave me alone. His eyes got wide and he put his hands up. The light turned green and I drove off. As I pulled away, I called the Tuscon PD and told them what this guy was doing. He was mentally ill or drunk based on his manner, walk, and speech... At the time, I was also ignorant in dealing with the police, so while I was on the phone with them, I did not disclose I was carrying and drew down on the guy.

    Aside from dealing with the police, the lesson learned here is--you just don't know what the other person may or may not do. Personally, if someone gets upset over the "courtesy honk", then they have other problems. A reasonable person wouldn't get upset over a honk. Not to mention, what if the person BEHIND YOU honks the horn, but the guy in front of you thinks you did it?

    Either way--I would try to move (you're sitting in a 3,000 pound weapon)...keep doors locked...As Lima suggested, if the other person shows with a bat, golf club, tire iron....game on. Draw down on them (keep windows up--BTW)....command them to leave you alone.....escape and call 911.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Array Tala's Avatar
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    What if

    You drive an older vehicle with manual windows, and no a/c so they are down.......

    Even if he comes out "unarmed" you are kinda stuck in the seat of your car and leaning over to roll up the passenger side does NOT seem like a tactically sound move to me.
    Of couse on the other hand, guy driving fancy late-model SUV is pretty dumb if he thinks he can take on a beater, who has more to lose if I ram him??
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them. -- John Wayne as John B. Books in "The Shootist"

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    New Member Array Ladder7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tala View Post
    What if

    You drive an older vehicle with manual windows, and no a/c so they are down.......

    Even if he comes out "unarmed" you are kinda stuck in the seat of your car and leaning over to roll up the passenger side does NOT seem like a tactically sound move to me.
    Of couse on the other hand, guy driving fancy late-model SUV is pretty dumb if he thinks he can take on a beater, who has more to lose if I ram him??
    You mean 2 x 50 AC? Been there and it sucks in VA.

    I'd still stay holstered and locked in car. Driver's side window up of course and PD on phone. Being unarmed wouldn't make him too much of a threat to me. If he wanted to crawl in the passenger side, I'd take my keys and exit driver's side while describing the situation in great detail to PD asking them to please expedite. Sounds like someone with a mental problem to me. I'd use the car as a barrier until PD showed up.
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  8. #8
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I'm not too worried,iIf I tap the horn and dipstick jumps out raving mad,I got a whole bunch of witnesses,tapping your horn is not escalating anything,if he's having a bad day and threatens me,first thing I'm dialing 911,giving tag and driver description,he starts striking my driver side window and he's gonna find out how big the barrel of a 1911 looks from the business end.Just cause I pull doesn't mean I have to shoot,and it's not brandishing If I'm in fear of great bodily harm from a raving lunatic
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
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  9. #9
    Member Array gunsite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilMonk View Post
    So...

    I've been getting my knowledge on in regards to "escalation".

    Don't flick anyone off
    Don't use rude language
    Don't invite further abuse with "Oh yeah?" or similar

    But...

    What if you are at a stop light in broad daylight. The light is notorious for being long on red and fast on green, and the guy in front of you is obviously doing something on his cell-phone and doesn't notice the light change. You tap the horn once to give him a "heads up" and then the inexplicable happens.

    He puts his car into park, exits his vehicle and begins raving at you. You're blocked in by his car and those behind you, and he is disadventageously placed so as to prohibit any manuveurs around him. He comes up to your door and yells at the now rolled up window. While you begin dialing the Police on your cell-phone, he begins kicking and striking your vehicle with his fists and continues his verbal tirade.

    Now, the question is:

    If he gets even more out of hand before the PD shows up (because as long as it stays just at this level, I really will just sit there until they get there), and starts trying to beat your windshield in or otherwise attempt access to your vehicle's interior to get at you, would you:

    A. Draw and Defend (at what point)?
    B. Be liable for "escalation" due to your otherwise acceptable single, quick honk on your horn?

    Just seems like it could be a 50/50 thing in court (the "honk")...
    This is the point where ESCALATION can happen very quickly and then bad things happen. Do you want to make this your ALAMO, or should cooler heads prevail. You can call police while video taping his actions on your cell phone (time providing) and then file a complaint even if the guys ends up pulling away or remains when police arrive. I would take my pistol out of the holster and place it on my seat visible to someone approaching/standing at my window. Having your weapon visible on the seat is not a crime (State Laws apply)... pointing it at someone CAN BE because you could now become and fingered as the aggressor especially if your target is UNARMED. Always keep in mind you have to prove YOUR IN FEAR OF YOUR LIFE... BODLY HARM IS A BROAD RANGE OF INTERPRETATION. State Laws Apply. My suggestions and lesson is... SHOOT... when you're in fear of your life... with NO avenue of escape or retreat. Good Luck with life's decisions.
    Last edited by gunsite; August 8th, 2010 at 08:26 AM. Reason: info

  10. #10
    AzB
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    This is why I don't pull so close to the vehicle in front when I stop.

    Also, driving a small, more maneuverable car is an advantage here as well. First step is to GET AWAY!

    If he's unarmed, no escalation but my hand will be on my gun. If he's armed, I will use the car, my gun, whatever to end the threat.
    Az

    -- Luck favors the well prepared.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    This is sticky in that it'll be ruled a road-rage regardless of your intent (heads-up honk). You draw 'after' the situation escalates 'if' he attempts to gain entry with a tool or whatever.

    As for as the way your situation unfolded. I'm sitting still with dispath on the cell phone. I'd try to inform them I'm armed and will not fire as long as this raging idiot dosn't try to get inside. I 'may' unholster my sidearm and have it beside me......I wouldn't, however, brandish or show it in any way if I can help it. No telling where that'll end up..... in court, in the street....just displaying a gun will make you look BAD in the eyes of those who'll show up, investigate, and judge you. Now, if a motivated effort is made by our raging idiot to get inside my vehicle...........at least, I hope, I've got dispatch on the phone and I remembered to 'verbilize' what's happening and just how fearful I am/was.




    Good 'thinking' sceaniro. I'll give a courtesy tap on my horn in that kind of a situation myself. Nowadays you just never know.
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  12. #12
    Member Array damien12g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    This is why I don't pull so close to the vehicle in front when I stop.

    Also, driving a small, more maneuverable car is an advantage here as well. First step is to GET AWAY!

    If he's unarmed, no escalation but my hand will be on my gun. If he's armed, I will use the car, my gun, whatever to end the threat.
    bingo, we have a winner...

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    This is why I don't pull so close to the vehicle in front when I stop.
    Yes, this is a key point. We know that by adopting good habits, we can greatly reduce our odds of being selected as targets for crime. Leaving a bit of space from the car in front of you at stops is always a good policy. If you get rear-ended, it can help avoid you hitting the car in front. And, as here, you might be glad to have an escape route.

    It isn't always possible. But this is one habit that you can adopt and it is something you can control.

    What makes this scenario difficult for me is the question of which car I'm driving. If it's my daily commuter, I don't care and would call 911 and let the clown vent outside the car. But if I'm in my sportscar, we're going to have some problems. For one thing, the top would be down and so there's no safety inside. Seated and buckled in, it would be tough to defend against an attacker from the driver's side. If I saw the driver ahead getting out of his car, I think my best move would be to get out as well and deal with the problem from there.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I don't usually do the "courtesy honk" until it's been a good 3-4 seconds and most of the time the driver has realized his error by that time.

    However, if things went exactly as you say then I would continue to wait in my car and let him pound the crap out of it until either, a) the police arrive or b) he gains entrance to my vehicle.

    If he's just pounding on my car with his fists he may put some dents in it but I'm not too worried about him getting to me and I will wait it out if I can't get away.

    BUT if he gets a tool, such as a tire iron out and starts coming at my vehicle I'm drawing. He can and probably will gain access quickly and with such a tool/weapon I am in fear for my life.

    Of course I would try to maneuver my car until I could drive away as well. No matter how blocked in you are there is usually enough room to do some wiggling and get away, even if you have to use the sidewalks.
    +1. This is why I always leave plenty of room between me and any car in front of me at a light, stop sign, etc. Always leave enough room in front to be able to get out. My wife thinks it's ridiculous, but one of these days she'll understand if I have to use it.
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  15. #15
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    Years ago, I wouldn't have honked an attention getting "beep", I would have sounded an 'eternal' horn to get moving.
    Fortunately, I now don't use the horn because of all the idiots out there. Now I do get angry (inside) when people do stupid things (but I've done some stupid things, too). I've had to wait through a couple of lights to get moving, but I don't honk the horn...I wait. Life is too short to not wait, but then it's taken 60+ years to gain that knowledge.
    I try to always see the rear tires of the car in front of me to have enough space for an exit. This is still not always possible in a 3-4 lane road.
    I have had idiots behind me hit the horn, and that's frustrating, but I still just let it 'ride'...I prefer to stay 'cool' on the outside. I know that if there is a possible attack, I have a plan of defense, therefore, I just want to remain calm and private. There is power in calm.
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