Recent killing using hydroshocks

Recent killing using hydroshocks

This is a discussion on Recent killing using hydroshocks within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There have been several fatal shootings in the papers and on the TV news recently (vid. the mass shooting at the beer distributors warehouse) but ...

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Thread: Recent killing using hydroshocks

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array DoctorBob's Avatar
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    Recent killing using hydroshocks

    There have been several fatal shootings in the papers and on the TV news recently (vid. the mass shooting at the beer distributors warehouse) but the one that has seemed to generate the most public anger is about the guy who went to a dog park and used his 9mm Glock loaded with hydroshock bullets in a fatal shooting.



    Apparently he was off duty (federal cop of some sort) and said he felt his life and the life of his wife was in danger. However, there appear to be no credible eye witnesses (one child has given police a statement). There is some question if he was legally allowed to carry in MD. He is currently on paid administrative leave while the shooting is being investigated. The officer's name has not been released because "many threats have been made against the man, his family and dog...."



    On a number of forum discussions, I've noted that people discuss scenarios in which they might or might not use deadly force. I doubt that this scenario has been discussed often in the past.



    If you think that drawing your weapon (in self defense?), or firing your weapon, or killing something with your weapon is going to result in an open and shut case, this event suggests that you may be underestimating the public response to the use of deadly force. While one point is that the shooting may (or may not) have been justified, the other point is that any use of firearms will likely bring about an investigation, social and economic costs, opprobrium, etc. That may raise one's threshold regarding the responsibilities of carrying a weapon.



    click or copy and paste the links into your browser and then post your comments...


    Interview with family of the victim:
    http://meeshkaworld.blogspot.com/

    Police question if carry was legal:
    http://articles.baltimoresun.com/201...olice-question

    http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/mar...,5935972.story

    Hydroshock killing bullet:
    http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/feat...ll_bearbe.html

    Editorial asking for investigation:
    http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opi...,5950094.story

    Story on Facebook and thousands sign petition:
    http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/feat...cebook_pa.html

    Police report:
    http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/feat...ice_repor.html

    Memorial service:
    http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/feat...l_a_recap.html
    Last edited by DoctorBob; August 8th, 2010 at 06:13 PM. Reason: family interview link added


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    He is a federal LEO he can carry anywhere In the USA and territories,the reason for the uproar is he was in a DOG PARK and a DOG was playing with his dog,then he claimed the dog snapped at him and he drew his gun and shot it.If he was in his yard and was attacked by a dog on his own property that's one thing,but he was in a place that people can let their pets run free,and everybody that knew that dog is saying that wasn't in the dogs nature.And to most people it looks like the LEO shot the dog for no valid reason
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
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  3. #3
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    I see troubled economic times for the LEO in question. If not so, then at least worry and aggravation.

    Why put up with the worry, unless you have no other option? Given the political climate of where I live and the number of people that seem to think that property, namely dogs, have rights, I am inclined to suffer a possibly crippling injury before I resort to killing Fido and will most likely do so using a blade.

    There's a lesson in this thread, and it's subject matter, for those smart enough to see it. Sad thing is, I don't know if many are that smart.

    Biker

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBob View Post
    If you think that drawing your weapon (in self defense?), or firing your weapon, or killing something with your weapon is going to result in an open and shut case, this event suggests that you may be underestimating the public response to the use of deadly force.
    The pressure that a community brings to bear on its legal machine (the police, district attorney, major, governor, judges) can have a solid impact on altering the path that "justice" takes. In the worst case, what would otherwise seem "open and shut" can absolutely be prosecuted with every ounce of energy at the legal system's disposal in pursuit of a conviction, truth be damned. Hard to say which sort of case this is, without knowing the reality of the facts, truth.

    Legally allowed to carry a gun? The attorney's office decided to not file charges, but then the "County Executive" determined a full investigation was warranted, since "the priority is to insure the dog parks are safe havens for the dogs and their owners."

    Of course, the principle of people being safe from attack and to be able to defend themselves from attack is another of those little principles that always exists, though it's not always deemed a priority, particularly in a well-to-do community when certain citizens get riled, or when cute, fuzzy little animals are harmed, or when our parks are "at risk" from the threat of guns, etc. Hard to know if this is one of those "truth be damned" situations, with what's been publicized so far.

    But this sort of case makes it pretty clear: being seen to be the GG and to have committed nothing but "good" defensive actions can be sticky, when flying in the face of the "reasonable man" standard and those "reasonable men" (all of whom weren't there). Ain't it the truth.
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  5. #5
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    First off the fact that he took his dog to a dog park was the first mistake. His dog may be the best trained and best behaved dog in the world, it's the other people's dogs that you have to worry about! Dog parks are worse than highways, you don't know what you are going to encounter. There are dogs of all temperments, with absolutely no training or discipline. Reading the story taken from the side of the family that owned the dog that was shot you could infer that the officer was quick to draw, but I didn't have time to see if the officers side was given.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    First off the fact that he took his dog to a dog park was the first mistake. His dog may be the best trained and best behaved dog in the world, it's the other people's dogs that you have to worry about! Dog parks are worse than highways, you don't know what you are going to encounter. There are dogs of all temperments, with absolutely no training or discipline. Reading the story taken from the side of the family that owned the dog that was shot you could infer that the officer was quick to draw, but I didn't have time to see if the officers side was given.
    I agree! I don't like taking my dogs to parks where I don't know the other dogs temperaments.


    Also, to the OP, I dislike correcting people but this is like nails on a blackboard to me... it's Hydra-Shok.

  7. #7
    Member Array Rail Driver's Avatar
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    Well. I can't really comment too much as none of the links beyond the first one work for me (my browser is looking at the ellipsis as part of the link, the link isn't getting expanded when I click on it... forum problem? browser problem?)

    That said, while the situation sounds fishy, dogs are FAST. Ever had one charge at you? You can bet if I'm out walking with my family, dog park or not, if I'm charged by a barking growling dog, it will be dropped like a rock unless it can dodge bullets.
    Even so, if the dog in question was just playing with the guys dog and him, then snapped... give it a good stiff boot to the nose, ribs, or soft tissues between the hind legs and ribcage ... if it don't leave you alone after that THEN shoot it.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Array Stirling XD's Avatar
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    I couldn't follow the links to get the whole story. I only know what the OP posted so I won't pass judgement on the the shooter or the dog. But I have spent A LOT of time in a dog park. If you want to learn more about dog behavior, that is the place to do it. I learned how to break up dog fights without getting bit. I also learned that most dog fights are not as serious as they look and sound. I have seen dogs bark like he was rabid, starving and enraged at a dog on the outside of the fence and then just just sniff and walk away when the dog came in the park.

    The dog park is no dogs territory. Most shows of aggression toward humans are just that. Just show. Agression towards other dogs is a different story. I have seen some human injuries caused by dogs at dog parks. 95% of them were casued when a dog collided with a the human as opposed to being attacked or bitten.

    If a dog snapped or growled at me I would take it seriously. I would let the owner know that his dog has an agression issue and that he needs to deal with it. I might even alert the police or animal control. But I would have a hard time shooting a dog that didn't have it's teeth sunk into my leg at the moment. Opening fire in a "park" of any kind can get serious in a lot of ways and in a hurry. CCW9MM brought up a lot of the factors that might make what looks like an "open and shut" case turn into a long, drawn out investigation that becomes a legal and financial nightmare. Shooting a dog is almost never as messy as shooting a human, but it could get messy just the same.

  9. #9
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    A dog park.

    I never even heard of a dog park. That must be a big city thing huh?
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    For one thing, it was ignorance on the part of the shooter & his wife.

    A dog on leash confronted with strange dogs off-leash is (mentally) at a big disadvantage and unable to defend itself or escape. Either make sure your dog can be trusted with others off-leash around other dogs or dont take it around other dogs.

    Pepper spray would have worked better here...I've used it on huskies. It works.

    I hope the cop gets hit with unnecessary force.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array DoctorBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastk9dad View Post
    I agree! I don't like taking my dogs to parks where I don't know the other dogs temperaments.


    Also, to the OP, I dislike correcting people but this is like nails on a blackboard to me... it's Hydra-Shok.
    Sorry; I use winchester JHPs

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    VIP Member Array hogdaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    A dog park.

    I never even heard of a dog park. That must be a big city thing huh?
    + 1 On that, There is parks around But not dog parks ; )
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  13. #13
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    A dog park.

    I never even heard of a dog park. That must be a big city thing huh?
    Must be. I've never heard of such, but I live in the mountains in a rural setting. We let our dogs run through fields and pastures...the same ones we shoot groundhogs in.
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  14. #14
    Member Array chivvalry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stirling XD View Post
    I couldn't follow the links to get the whole story. I only know what the OP posted so I won't pass judgement on the the shooter or the dog. But I have spent A LOT of time in a dog park. If you want to learn more about dog behavior, that is the place to do it. I learned how to break up dog fights without getting bit. I also learned that most dog fights are not as serious as they look and sound. I have seen dogs bark like he was rabid, starving and enraged at a dog on the outside of the fence and then just just sniff and walk away when the dog came in the park.

    The dog park is no dogs territory. Most shows of aggression toward humans are just that. Just show. Agression towards other dogs is a different story. I have seen some human injuries caused by dogs at dog parks. 95% of them were casued when a dog collided with a the human as opposed to being attacked or bitten.

    If a dog snapped or growled at me I would take it seriously. I would let the owner know that his dog has an agression issue and that he needs to deal with it. I might even alert the police or animal control. But I would have a hard time shooting a dog that didn't have it's teeth sunk into my leg at the moment. Opening fire in a "park" of any kind can get serious in a lot of ways and in a hurry. CCW9MM brought up a lot of the factors that might make what looks like an "open and shut" case turn into a long, drawn out investigation that becomes a legal and financial nightmare. Shooting a dog is almost never as messy as shooting a human, but it could get messy just the same.
    Well said. Don't have all the facts but from what has been presented this officer committed a crime.

    I've had my dog get attacked several times (he's a 110 lb German Shepherd that loves to play with other dogs) and never once thought that I needed to pull my gun and shoot the other dog. My dog's walked away several times with minor bites or cuts (never inflicted any though) and while it is upsetting it wouldn't be justification to kill someone's pet.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array BlueLion's Avatar
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    Yeah this guy is toast. The poster also makes some good points also about repercussions of pulling a weapon. We definitely have to make sure the situation warrants it.
    Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

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