Interesting scenario - Page 2

Interesting scenario

This is a discussion on Interesting scenario within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The old guy acted appropriately, and the dirtbag exposed his true nature to the cops...it cost him, too! What would/could have been different here if ...

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  1. #16
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    The old guy acted appropriately, and the dirtbag exposed his true nature to the cops...it cost him, too!

    What would/could have been different here if the old guy had had a firearm on his side?
    Any responses?
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    This incident was originally posted at High Road and heavily discussed there. The cane is a far better weapon than a knife if you train with it and know what to do. I work with the short staff (jo) routinely and we practice all kinds of attacks - many of which start with the BG grabbing the cane and trying to take it away.

    It takes very little effort to take down an opponent of almost any size with a cane, mainly when used as a grappling/hooking tool. Less effective as a striking/thrusting weapon (but still good). It has reach and it amplifies force through leverage. What takes time and study is to learn to hold it lightly and let it follow the flow of combat. It isn't a baseball bat. You use it like rowing with an oar, looping, circling, binding up the opponent and taking him down. Once down, you can swing and poke for all you're worth.

    The knife, however, is a close-range weapon and a knife fight is a bloody, nasty business. It has superior intimidation value and here that was the winning ticket. The idiot husband could have grabbed a nearby chair and engaged and probably would have won handily. I'm glad the vet survived this bad incident and he did all the right things. "Cane was no good," however, is a misleading title.
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  3. #18
    Member Array gruntingfrog's Avatar
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    Shockwave,

    I think the key here is the skill required to use a cane as a weapon is much higher than a knife. I agree with you that in skilled hands they are fantastic weapons, but if someone doesn't have the time or desire to dedicate to practice, they will not be effective (especially for a 50% disabled man). A knife on the other hand can still do significant damage in the hands of a complete novice. You also hit upon the intimidation value. That is a significant factor in avoiding the fight to begin with. There are people that would laugh at an old man with a cane and attack anyway opening up the possibility for injury of the victim.

    That being said, I think the man would have definitely been justified in drawing his gun in this situation. The disparity of force and the fact that "big daddy" had the means and, taking him for his word, the intent to do serious bodily harm makes this a no brainer. I think just displaying or putting his hand on his gun would have had the same effect as holding the knife. He probably wouldn't have to use it, but better be prepared to if the guy keeps coming.
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  4. #19
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    Something about knives that scare the bezeezes outta me. Rattlesnakes--the same way. Maybe he was the same way.

  5. #20
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    This scenario begs the question:
    If you were sitting at the table adjacent to the 69 year old slightly built man, and you witnessed the scenario from the beginning, but the older man didn't have a knife or cane, what would you have done when the big aggressive BG approached threatening?
    1.Intervene
    2.Make a cell call.
    3.Run home.
    4.Finish your coffee and be a good witness.

  6. #21
    Member Array gruntingfrog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carguy2244 View Post
    This scenario begs the question:
    If you were sitting at the table adjacent to the 69 year old slightly built man, and you witnessed the scenario from the beginning, but the older man didn't have a knife or cane, what would you have done when the big aggressive BG approached threatening?
    1.Intervene
    2.Make a cell call.
    3.Run home.
    4.Finish your coffee and be a good witness.
    #3 =

    Seriously, I would have to intervene especially if I had seen the entire scene take place. No roid-head is beating up an old man on my watch. I would probably start with my own knife, too. At 6'3", 225, with a knife in my hand I'm pretty sure he would think twice.
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  7. #22
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    I am also a bigger guy, 6'0 270, not built like a body builder, but big enough. Also because of some of the rougher crowds I hang around with, nothing criminal, just a lot of construction guys, dump truck workers, and a couple of them are probably convicts, but none of them ever say anything about it and are nice and respectful. I would step up to him and stand up for the old man, after having called the police, and told them what was going on. Had the man moved on the old man, seeing as how I watched the situation unfold, and know exactly what is going on, I would have no problem macing the guy and drawing my handgun if the OC did not work. I am confident that even if he continued and I used lethal force, I would be within the law, and have plenty of witnesses to that effect. However the psychological side of me would be troubled deeply for years knowing that I took a little girls daddy from her in front of her eyes even though he was going to kill an old man
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  8. #23
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    Interesting scenario.

    To dismiss canes outright shows short sightedness of a high degree IMO. As noted, all weapons, even guns, have their limitations. The trick is to know those limitations and to use your weapons to their maximum effectiveness.

    Note to Carguy: I saw your reply, as I took you off "Ignore" just to see what you had to say. I'm glad I did, as it allowed me to send your post to the powers that be here at Defensive Carry. We don't generally tolerate picking on other members, as your post has done. I myself have been guilty of that in the past, and took my lumps for it. This is not your average website/forum, and those of us that have been here a while do tend to take some pride in that. I personally consider this sight to be one of, if not the, best gun forums on the internet. You may however feel differently about the subject, I don't know. There are lots of websites out there, and maybe another will be more to your liking.

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  9. #24
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    I'm disabled and a vet,I have to use a cane to walk,I cannot fight with a cane due to a spinal cord injury,even a knife in my hand would be hard to maneuver fast enough to be effective,If that happened to me here,the big guy woulda been staring down the barrel of a 45,In my condition a punch to the head could kill me and or damage my spinal cord to the point I would become a complete quadraplegic.That family has probably had other situations happen and the muscle bound moron is probably a roid user.I liked the ending to the story,I would have pushed for mommy to get arrested for making the phone call that started the whole incident
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  10. #25
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    This incident was originally posted at High Road and heavily discussed there. The cane is a far better weapon than a knife if you train with it and know what to do. I work with the short staff (jo) routinely and we practice all kinds of attacks - many of which start with the BG grabbing the cane and trying to take it away.

    It takes very little effort to take down an opponent of almost any size with a cane, mainly when used as a grappling/hooking tool. Less effective as a striking/thrusting weapon (but still good). It has reach and it amplifies force through leverage. What takes time and study is to learn to hold it lightly and let it follow the flow of combat. It isn't a baseball bat. You use it like rowing with an oar, looping, circling, binding up the opponent and taking him down. Once down, you can swing and poke for all you're worth.

    The knife, however, is a close-range weapon and a knife fight is a bloody, nasty business. It has superior intimidation value and here that was the winning ticket. The idiot husband could have grabbed a nearby chair and engaged and probably would have won handily. I'm glad the vet survived this bad incident and he did all the right things. "Cane was no good," however, is a misleading title.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    The old guy acted appropriately, and the dirtbag exposed his true nature to the cops...it cost him, too!

    What would/could have been different here if the old guy had had a firearm on his side?
    Any responses?
    I was wondering this same thing.....
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    I would have pushed for mommy to get arrested for making the phone call that started the whole incident
    I doubt that there would be any legal grounds for arresting her, BUT.....I'll guarantee you that if I were the manager of that restaurant and I knew the story, I would permanently refuse her and her daughter service, with a restraining order if necessary.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post

    What would/could have been different here if the old guy had had a firearm on his side?
    Any responses?
    After he told me he was going to "whup" me in front of all those witnesses, and if I were a 69 year old man who was half his size, I would have no problem aiming a .45 at his head.

    It's a little tougher being younger, fit, and closer to the guy's size. The disparity of force is not as obvious. I suspect bringing a gun into it would be problematic.

    Now if he had a weapon, it's all over. And pretty quickly.
    Az

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  14. #29
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Handled well by the older vet.
    Being of the size/age that the disparity of force would be in play, I think that when he came in I would have discreetly drawn and put it under a napkin. When Conan come over to thump me I would have pulled the napkin back slightly revealing the muzzle and said something to the effect of, "Your call".

  15. #30
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    There's been alot of talk about the affectiveness of a knife. I've seen several pictures of knife wounds. I have to admit, I would have backed off too. Google knife wounds and you'll see why. I'm sure a cane could be a very effective weapon, but would probably take more experience to use it affectively.
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